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Suggestion for board cleanup/moderation; Anyone starts to see it as messed up?
Topic Started: Apr 5 2013, 10:19 AM (457 Views)
tellur
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Since I'm starting to feel a bit uncomfortable on this forum (a lot of mess here-spam, offtopics, post in bad sections etc) and also I've decided to read through all posts/topics (and the end seems in nowhere), I've got a few suggestions for moderators of this boards. I understand that you guys are just ordinary humans like me, so you got work, family, friends etc and you're doing this in your free time but someone should definitely clean up.
The most important imo - create a new section called "board's archive" All topics, where the last post is older than 1st January 2010, should be moved to archive. Why this date?
1)Any discussion that's older than 3 years is in my opinion irrelevant to modern Slovianski/Medžuslovjanski.
2)AFAIK, Slovianski before 2010 existed in two variants - Slovianski N and P. But Slovianski P was abandoned and a new era began.
3)In the early 2010, Vojta published his Novoslovienskij and both NS and SL started to unite under one project - Medžuslovjanski.

If someone just wishes to open up and old discussion, he is free to do so - his post and the whole topic he's posting in should be moved to a more recent section.

Next suggestion
There are lots of offtopics. A good example. - Xfing asked whether he should use genitive or accusative after some verbs and he was answered. Then Xifng posted another question about usage of běše. But from this point, discussion slowly shifted towards a debate about NS and SL - clearly an offtopic. There are tens of topics like that, they tend to shift towards a discussion over a desired word and MS lexicon.
Those offtopics should be moved into new relevant topics.

Well, this is all for now. As I've said. I'm just starting to read through all topics and I'm not even in the middle of it, so this will take some time. But don't worry, I'll make notes and then post those notes as suggestions :)
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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Kozica
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pravda
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Spam
Really, where did you find spam??? If there's anything like that, it must have escaped our attention. I remember there have been a few occurrences of spam in the (remote) past, but that's all.

Off-topic
I guess this is a matter of taste. Personally, I don't like it when a thread is about 89 different subjects. On the other hand I also don't want to act like a policeman who tells people not to talk about something (or at least, not here/now).

Chaotic threads
Often threads become a mess like this:
- A writes: what do you think about this text? [.....]
- B writes: I don't like words P, Q and R.
- C writes: I don't like your demonstrative pronouns.
- D writes: Why do you write SZ instead of Š?
And subsequently you have five discussions in one thread. Sometimes people reply to several issues in one message, others don't. Some of these subthreads split again into several topics. Well, moderators can split off messages from threads and merge them into a new thread. I've frequently done that when a thread suddenly started being about something completely different. If necessary, they can edit messages as well. However, one thing moderators cannot do is COPYING messages. In case you wonder why that is a problem: it would have been much easier to split such a thread in smaller threads (one about P, one about Q, one about R, one about pronouns and one about orthography). Now that's often impossible, because key messages are about multiple subjects in one, and you can't pull them out of any of them without killing the context.

I agree that there are a lot of threads that need to be moved to another subforum.

I also agree that many threads are way too long, especially in the "Slovnik" section. Words are mostly discussed under titles like "slova #22" or "lexicon review once more", which is not an informative header at all. I guess it would be best to dismember such threads into smaller ones. Not every word should have its own thread of course, but when there's a whole discussion about one word, it may be worth the effort.

Archiving pre-2010 messages
To be quite honest, I can't really see the point of that. All threads are ordered chronologically by the last message. If you think pre-2010 messages are not important anymore, then you can simply stop reading there. There is absolutely no reason IMO for moving them to a separate section.

Besides, I don't agree that 1 Jan. 2010 is such a tremendously important date in our history. Let me explain:

Quote:
 
1)Any discussion that's older than 3 years is in my opinion irrelevant to modern Slovianski/Medžuslovjanski.
Disagreed! The research that has been done before 2010 is equally relevant today as it was then. Maybe the conclusions are different in some cases, that's possible, but the information they are based on remains the same.

Quote:
 
2)AFAIK, Slovianski before 2010 existed in two variants - Slovianski N and P. But Slovianski P was abandoned and a new era began.
I wouldn't put it that way. They only real difference between N and P was that the latter used prepositions instead of cases (something which technically is still possible, although nobody does it anymore). Therefore practically all discussions were relevant to both of them. This "new era" was merely to put an end to the confusion, because people tended to treat them as separate languages.

Quote:
 
3)In the early 2010, Vojta published his Novoslovienskij and both NS and SL started to unite under one project - Medžuslovjanski.
The name "Medžuslovjanski" existed long before we were born. Already back in 2009 I proposed it as a new name for Slovianski and in the same period Steeven started using it as a new name for his Slovioski. Later, we started using it as an umbrella name for all different varieties, including Slovianski, NS and older projects. Especially since Slovianski and Slovioski merged (sometime in 2010), Medžuslovjanski and Slovianski have practically been synonyms.

Of course, Slovianski has changed a lot since 2006. But all these changes came so gradually that it is impossible to pick one date or even year when everything changed. And I don't think anybody can tell where Slovianski ends and Medžuslovjanski begins. To be honest, I don't even care. What definitely makes the whole thing more complicated is that Slovianski (since 2010 indeed) has been slowly developing into a metalanguage that includes various grammatical options, various orthographical solutions etc. A lot of things have been discussed and decided on this forum, both recently and in older times. Do recent decisions apply to Slovianski only, to Interslavic as a separate entity or to Interslavic as a whole? To give you an example, originally Slovianski had jazyk, later (I think in 2009) it became jezik, at some point we decided to "allow" also jezyk, and again at some later point jezyk became the unofficial new standard, while jezik would be allowed, too. Likewise, first we had piat, then piat', then pjat', then peť, perhaps even pęť, perhaps even pęť or pet. If you'd ask me which forms are "official" in Slovianski right now, I couldn't even tell you. We might as well say that this is the last stage of "real" Slovianski. Historically, it's more or less like this (for me goes that I have been absent between September 2006 and June 2008):

2006 - Original Slovianski-N, Slovianski-P and Slovianski-S started. Grammars on Langmaker.com. Big forum (ca. 250 members).
2007 - Old forum goes offline, new forum on Invisionfree. Slovianski-S abandoned. Slovianska Gazeta.
2008 - Langmaker.com goes offline. Forum moderately active. Small dictionary with ca. 2000 words. Small group of people. New website at steen.free.fr
2009 - Slovioski started. Slovianski forum practically silent for most of the year (to give Slovioski a chance?). Near the end of the year renewed activity, sudden influx of new members, Slovianski-N becomes Slovianski, Slovianski-P not abandoned, but mostly inactive. Growing number of articles on Wikipedia.
2010 - Slovianto and Naučny Slovianski (later: Naučny Medžuslovjanski) started. NS first published. Slovianski and Slovioski gradually merge. Dictionary: ca. 4000 words. Lots of media attention.
2011 - Izviestija.info started. Talks about cooperation. Dictionary ca. 5000 words. Website titled "Interslavic" instead of "Slovianski".
2012 - Dictionary grows to ca. 9000 words.
2013 - Interslavic Wiki started.

So, if there's really a breakpoint, it is December 2009, when Slovianski came back to life after a hiatus of almost a year. But on the other hand, at that point Slovianski was no different from what it was a year before. And shortly after that, we did various experiments that were "official" for a while but later reversed (like liubiti instead of ljubiti or l'ubiti; pulni/vulk/dulgi instead of polni/volk/dolgi, 1pl. on -me instead of -mo, etc.). Other changes, like grod > grad, came even later, in 2011 IIRC. So I guess there are three possible version that we can really call "Slovianski": 1. the original Slovianski-N the way I left it here; 2. the Slovianski-N that was renamed "Slovianski" in December 2009; 3. current MS. But I should add that from 1 to 3 it is really a matter of slow, continuous development. Same goes for the group: some of us have been here since 2006, many others have come later, and several active members have become inactive at some point. What really distinguishes Slovianski from other projects though, is that from the beginning it has been a group project, and that every choice has always been based on a combination of objective criteria and group consensus. If there is any difference between Slovianski and Interslavic, it is that the latter also takes into account the works by Križanič, Herkeľ, Majar etc., and also NS. But frankly, I don't think there is a point in Slovianski and Interslavic coexisting as separate entities, and as far as I am concerned, Slovianski ends where Medžuslovjanski begins. It's a pity Vojta doesn't participate in any of the discussions here, because that would have made things a lot easier.

But breakpoint or not, I can't really see the purpose of moving old posts to a different location, because like I said, it is one long, continuous development.

Reorganization
But all this does of course not mean things can't be reorganized. If you'd like, for example, new subforums, that can always be taken care of.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Apr 6 2013, 01:00 AM
Reorganization
But all this does of course not mean things can't be reorganized. If you'd like, for example, new subforums, that can always be taken care of.
I basically agree with Jan vS "across the board" ;) ... meaning, on each of the points to which he responded.
Reorganization of a forum is possible.
Are there any forums anywhere that you believe are well organized?
I look at the ConLang's forum, the WordReference forum, etc. They are all very similar - although the WordReference forum seems to have a heavy-handed nazi moderator who will cut and burn posts if they are off topic.

The version of ZetaBoards of this forum is an older version.
I did start up a "new" Interslavic Forum in the "new" ZetaBoard theme: go here...
...but no one wanted to migrate to it (newer features, more design capability,etc.).

The fact for me is that I see value in simplicity.
Like this "older" ZetaBoard.

I do agree with Martin (Tellur) about the spam postings that are not relevant to MS.
And I have occasionally deleted some of them.

Please do give examples of a forum that you like, Martin!
:)




Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
steeven
Apr 6 2013, 01:59 AM
I look at the ConLang's forum, the WordReference forum, etc. They are all very similar - although the WordReference forum seems to have a heavy-handed nazi moderator who will cut and burn posts if they are off topic.
I've seen those as well. It's not where I would ever like to go. I'm an advocate of a no-interference policy.

Fortunately, we've never had users who started to use the forum like a chatbox. On the old forum, we've had a few Bulgarian/Macedonian wars, though.

Quote:
 
The version of ZetaBoards of this forum is an older version.
I did start up a "new" Interslavic Forum in the "new" ZetaBoard theme: go here...
...but no one wanted to migrate to it (newer features, more design capability,etc.).

I admit I've either never seen it or completely forgotten about it! Looks nice. Never much liked the Slovioski flag, though.

Honestly speaking, I've never been much interested in layout stuff. As long as the text is readable, I'm fine with it. For the rest, I don't very much see the point of moving once again to another place. I would never accept a solution where we'd loose our archives. Neither would I feel much for a solution where people would have to re-register, because you always lose people that way.

Quote:
 
I do agree with Martin (Tellur) about the spam postings that are not relevant to MS.
And I have occasionally deleted some of them.

Really? What kind of postings?



Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I've already created a new subforum for "Texts", and moved around a few misplaced topics. It will be quite a job, though.

The old Slovianski forum had a more elaborated set of subforums: http://web.archive.org/web/20060621131543/www.slovianski.com/forum/index.php

EDIT: Split off flag discussion to a separate thread
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Apr 6 2013, 10:47 AM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Would it perhaps an idea to create subforums? For example, "Gramatika" would stay, but instead of 8 pages with threads, it could have subforums like:
- Nouns
- Pronouns
- Adjectives
- Verbs
- Syntax
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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bandziol20
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I propose rather 3 blocks : phonology (& orthography), morphology, syntax
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Phonology/orthography is already a separate subforum. Separating syntax alone wouldn't make much of a difference. The advantage of the kind of subforums I suggested would be that it becomes easier to find things. But I'm not sure if it really matters.

Most problematic (in terms of chaos and findability) is undoubtedly the Slovnik subforum anyway.
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Apr 6 2013, 01:34 PM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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tellur
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Old forum is very organized indeed!
Quote:
 
Most problematic (in terms of chaos and findability) is undoubtedly the Slovnik subforum anyway.
I agree.

My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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