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I'm slightly confused about the orthography.
Topic Started: Nov 25 2012, 04:08 AM (648 Views)
Xfing
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I mean specifically the differentiation between letters with diacritics and letters softened with a "j". Now I do realize that they are supposed to be interchangeable and used according with preference, but myself I like to stick by the rules, however lax they may be. So, while I know that

"konj" and "koň" are perfectly interchangeable, what would we do in the case of words like

"banjka"/"baňka"?

Now I know that we don't have this word in the lexicon, it's taken from the Polish "bańka" which means "bubble" <- a flying one, like the ones you blow out of a bubble blower.

I would opt for writing that one with the "ň", honestly, simply because "njk" doesn't really look that good and it's too many letters next to each other.

Another thing: I have seen that we have several words (or maybe had in the past) which employ, dunno how to call it, a "double softening" in their orthography. This is mostly seen in the Cyrillic version. But what's the point of writing the equivalent of "ňje" if "nje" will sound exactly the same? Morphological reasons? I think this example would be once again well illustrated on the word "koň".

If someone chooses to write "koň" instead of "konj", then how will the plural look? There are three options I can think of:

koňe
koně
koňě

Of course, the third option is redundant, because you obviously can't get softer than "ń/ň". So could someone waste some of their precious time and clarify these small things for me? :)

EDIT: OOps, wrong section! This was meant in the "fonologija and pravopis" section. Sorry! :(
Edited by Xfing, Nov 25 2012, 04:09 AM.
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bandziol20
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Don't ask me. I'd like Polish solution : bańka - baniek, koń.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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nonik

nom./banjka
gen./banjky
dat./banjkie/banjcie
akuz./banjku
voc./banjko
lok./banjkie/banjcie
instr./banjkoj/oju

plural

banjky
banjek
banjkam
banjky
banjky
banjkah
banjkami
Edited by nonik, Nov 25 2012, 01:35 PM.
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nonik

konj
konja
konju
konja
konji/konju
konju/konji
konjem

konji/konje
konjev
konjam
konje
konji/konje
konjah
konjami
Edited by nonik, Nov 25 2012, 01:43 PM.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Xfing
Nov 25 2012, 04:08 AM
I mean specifically the differentiation between letters with diacritics and letters softened with a "j". Now I do realize that they are supposed to be interchangeable and used according with preference, but myself I like to stick by the rules, however lax they may be. So, while I know that

"konj" and "koň" are perfectly interchangeable, what would we do in the case of words like

"banjka"/"baňka"?
Exactly the same thing! :)

Quote:
 
Now I know that we don't have this word in the lexicon, it's taken from the Polish "bańka" which means "bubble" <- a flying one, like the ones you blow out of a bubble blower.

I would opt for writing that one with the "ň", honestly, simply because "njk" doesn't really look that good and it's too many letters next to each other.
Similar situation: poľski vs. poljski. Both are equally fine, and how people feel about it depends pretty much on where they come from.

Quote:
 
Another thing: I have seen that we have several words (or maybe had in the past) which employ, dunno how to call it, a "double softening" in their orthography. This is mostly seen in the Cyrillic version. But what's the point of writing the equivalent of "ňje" if "nje" will sound exactly the same? Morphological reasons? I think this example would be once again well illustrated on the word "koň".

If someone chooses to write "koň" instead of "konj", then how will the plural look? There are three options I can think of:

koňe
koně
koňě

Of course, the third option is redundant, because you obviously can't get softer than "ń/ň". So could someone waste some of their precious time and clarify these small things for me? :)
Keep in mind that the ending is -e, not -ě. Therefore:
koň + -e = koňe
(or: konj + -e = konje)

But take a word like zakon. In the locative singular you get:
zakon + -ě = zakoně

Whether koňe and zakoně are pronounced the same, depends again on where you come from. For a Pole, a Russian or a Czech, there won't be a difference. But a Serb would pronounce "zakoně" as "zakone", yet he wouldn't say "kone".

Double softening is currently being discussed in another thread. The term "double softening" is not entirely accurate, what we are really dealing with here is: -ьj-. Technically, the -j- is not a softener in this case. Pronunciation of dělaňje may be like dělaňe, but also like dělanije.

Quote:
 
EDIT: OOps, wrong section! This was meant in the "fonologija and pravopis" section. Sorry! :(
Already fixed! :)
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
nonik
Nov 25 2012, 01:42 PM
konji/konju
Is this a vocative? I don't think vocatives of masculine words ever take -i.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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bandziol20
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No, it's plural nominative :
jeden koń - dva konj-i,
as
jeden deń - dva dnj-i
(in Polish more popular nowadays is dni than dnie, though the latter can be seen in the title from 19. century : Noce i dnie) :)
Edited by bandziol20, Nov 25 2012, 02:14 PM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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Xfing
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nonik
Nov 25 2012, 01:34 PM
nom./banjka
gen./banjky
dat./banjkie/banjcie
akuz./banjku
voc./banjko
lok./banjkie/banjcie
instr./banjkoj/oju

plural

banjky
banjek
banjkam
banjky
banjky
banjkah
banjkami
This looks like novoslovienskij to me :P
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Xfing
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bandziol20
Nov 25 2012, 02:14 PM
No, it's plural nominative :
jeden koń - dva konj-i,
as
jeden deń - dva dnj-i
(in Polish more popular nowadays is dni than dnie, though the latter can be seen in the title from 19. century : Noce i dnie) :)
Well, the declination of the word "deň" is pretty puzzling to say the least. For example, one of the sample texts from the Medžuslovjanski site uses "dňev" for the plural genitive. Fokken counter-intuitive if you ask me O_O
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garbelygoo

IJzeren Jan
Nov 25 2012, 01:44 PM
Double softening is currently being discussed in another thread. The term "double softening" is not entirely accurate, what we are really dealing with here is: -ьj-. Technically, the -j- is not a softener in this case. Pronunciation of dělaňje may be like dělaňe, but also like dělanije.
That's close to how I have been pronouncing it. (dělanije)
Edited by garbelygoo, Nov 25 2012, 03:46 PM.
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tellur
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Ja to imaju veľmi legke s tutym.
V mojem pravopisaniju je se sjednotily nasledujuče bukvy - ę, ě, e - v jedine e, ktore palatalizuje predhadžujuči suglasnik - v mojem izgovore to sut d, t, n, l, r, ktore se palatalizujut na [ď, ť, ň, ľ, ř]. Ješče bukva i jest palatalizujuča, vse ostalne bukvy ne sut palatalizovany bukvoju i či e (takže j jest palatalizujuče). To znači, že slova jako:
dnev
koni/kone
delanije
red
legky

kažu kak:

[dňev]
[koňi]/[koňe]
[ďelaňije]
[řed]
[ľegky]

s istymi izkľučenijami kak plne dete - [plne ďeťe]

Tutoj system imaje dve glavne prednosti
a)jest to prirodne, imaje to prinajmeneje slovačsky - ne treba mi se zaobirati so slovy kak "řed" "dňev", "koňe", "gospoďi" "paňe doktoře" i tako daleje.
b)jedno jedine e jest universalne i srazumlive vsim Slovenom
Edited by tellur, Nov 25 2012, 07:01 PM.
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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steeven
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SLOVIANSKI MASCULINE DECLENSION (with "deň" added)
from Medžuslovjanski - NOUNS

Shall we use the caron "n" - or not use any diacritical mark?

CASE
SINGULAR
PLURAL
Nom

dom
pes
muž
deň

domy
psy
muži
dňi

Acc

dom
psa
muža
deň*

domy
psov
mužev
dňi*

Gen

doma
psa
muža
dňa

domov
psov
mužev
dňev

Dat

domu
psu
mužu
dňu

domam
psam
mužam
dňam

Ins

domom
psom
mužem
dňem

domami
psami
mužami
dňami

Loc

dome
pse
muže
dňu

domah
psah
mužah
dňah

Voc

domu
psu
mužu
dňu

domah
psah
mužah
dňah

* deň - dňi - accusative - is used because "day" is an "inanimate noun"; whereas "animate nouns" (e.g. animals) use "-a" - "-ov" or "-ev" endings in accusative.
T.J.: When a masculine noun is inanimate, the accusative has the same form as the nominative; when it is animate, the genitive is used instead.
Edited by steeven, Nov 26 2012, 01:58 AM.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Xfing
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Thanks, I think I'll learn it. eventually :P
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Xfing
Nov 25 2012, 03:41 PM
bandziol20
Nov 25 2012, 02:14 PM
No, it's plural nominative :
jeden koń - dva konj-i,
as
jeden deń - dva dnj-i
(in Polish more popular nowadays is dni than dnie, though the latter can be seen in the title from 19. century : Noce i dnie) :)
Well, the declination of the word "deň" is pretty puzzling to say the least. For example, one of the sample texts from the Medžuslovjanski site uses "dňev" for the plural genitive. Fokken counter-intuitive if you ask me O_O
Denj is a kind of weird noun, and dnjev is definitely over-regularised. Actually, in the plural it should be declined as a noun of the kost'ť type:

singular: NA. denj, G. dnja, D. dnju, I. dnjem, L. dnju/dni
plural: NA. dni/dnje, G. dni/dnij, D. dnjam, I. dnjami, L. dnjah

Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Nov 26 2012, 01:55 AM
Denj is a kind of weird noun, and dnjev is definitely over-regularised. Actually, in the plural it should be declined as a noun of the kosť type:
singular: NA. denj, G. dnja, D. dnju, I. dnjem, L. dnju/dni
plural: NA. dni/dnje, G. dni/dnij, D. dnjam, I. dnjami, L. dnjah

More exceptions?
Do we want to have more footnotes to our grammar and vocabulary?
Or to observe some form of standardisation to keep it relatively simple?
Individual native speakers will use what they are familiar with; so:
Genitive - Sing - Plu:
UK: дня - днів
SR: дана - да́на
CS: dne, dnu - dní, dnů
SK: dňa - dňí
BE: дня - днёў
RU: дня - дней
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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