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Prošu o pomoč s gramatikoju i slovnictvom
Topic Started: Nov 17 2012, 06:53 PM (1,064 Views)
iopq
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bandziol20
Nov 20 2012, 09:37 AM
Actually, that above was in Bandulica, in Slovianski, I suppose it would be : dete pOLno nadeji ? (I'm not sure of endings for nadeja 'hope')
I know it was, so?

The system I liked was -e and -i endings only
Jan has it all backwards: dome, mužu

just seems unetymological
Edited by iopq, Nov 20 2012, 09:50 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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iopq
Nov 20 2012, 09:48 AM
The system I liked was -e and -i endings only
Jan has it all backwards: dome, mužu
What do you mean ? Could you give some examples ? :)
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
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bandziol20
Nov 20 2012, 09:51 AM
iopq
Nov 20 2012, 09:48 AM
The system I liked was -e and -i endings only
Jan has it all backwards: dome, mužu
What do you mean ? Could you give some examples ? :)
I mean just simplifying the OCS declension into two cases:
-e in most cases
-i in others

distribution is up to you :D
or rather, I haven't decided yet all the cases
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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Oh, I didn't realize it hasn't been fixed yet. So genitive from nadeja is nadej-i / nadej-e (user's choice).
And just for curiosity : what do 169 millions of speakers pick ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I think Igor is talking about the locative, not the genitive. Right?

Personally, I'm not a fan of genitives on -e. Problem is that many languages don't have ANY genitives on -e. I don't think we need genitives on -u either.

As for the locative masculine and neuter nouns, we have the following options:
- always no matter what comes first (but then you also get v morje and v polje).
- -i after soft consonants (OCS): pri muži, v morji.
- -u after soft consonants (happens a lot): pri mužu, v morju
- -u after k/g/h (v jezyku - which I think is better than v jezykě, because in that case v jezyce would be more logical)

Frankly, I can live with any solution, but three different endings would be good IMO and "jezyke" looks kind of awkward to me.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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nonik

vsejaky heroj i strahopetec

tako kako to imajes - v kontextu, razumlivo bez problema.
v osamoteniju byh imal problem.
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bandziol20
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Ok, tellur, what's Your final version ? Or perhaps, someone else has his own translation of this text into Slovianski ? :)
Edited by bandziol20, Nov 30 2012, 10:47 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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steeven
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"...someone else has an his own translation...." ;)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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tellur
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bandziol20
Nov 29 2012, 05:21 PM
Ok, tellur, what's Your final version ? Or perhaps, someone else has an own translation of this text into Slovianski ? :)
Moja "konečna" verzija jest v mojem poste, izmenil jesm togo toľko malo :)
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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nonik

jeszcze jedin koment imaju, mozhno by bylo liepszeje v miestu VSE-JAKY HEROJ, dati VSE-KAKY heroj. No otvisi to ot tebe, daj czo je libo za tebe.
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iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Nov 20 2012, 01:03 PM
I think Igor is talking about the locative, not the genitive. Right?

Personally, I'm not a fan of genitives on -e. Problem is that many languages don't have ANY genitives on -e. I don't think we need genitives on -u either.

As for the locative masculine and neuter nouns, we have the following options:
- always no matter what comes first (but then you also get v morje and v polje).
- -i after soft consonants (OCS): pri muži, v morji.
- -u after soft consonants (happens a lot): pri mužu, v morju
- -u after k/g/h (v jezyku - which I think is better than v jezykě, because in that case v jezyce would be more logical)

Frankly, I can live with any solution, but three different endings would be good IMO and "jezyke" looks kind of awkward to me.

[čćч]
well, you'd probably include Ukrainian in the list of "no -e genitives" but that would be deceptive because we're really talking about a -ie genitive (NS orthography) or -ѣ (cyrillic) which Ukrainian does have in just about every case (except after velars)

and v moře/v poľe are completely valid Russian forms
they don't sound strange to the Ukrainian ear either (since Ukrainians mentally replace -e with -i)
I wouldn't mind -i everywhere after a soft consonant, but I wouldn't mind keeping -e

jezyke is more of a Russism/simplified form (kind of like prosijut), it should either be jezyku or jezyce
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
well, you'd probably include Ukrainian in the list of "no -e genitives" but that would be deceptive because we're really talking about a -ie genitive (NS orthography) or -ѣ (cyrillic) which Ukrainian does have in just about every case (except after velars)

Again, are you talking about genitives or about locatives?

Novosloviensky has genitives on -e in cases like "duše", "matere", "imene" etc.

However, much as I believe in flexibility, there is one rule of design in Slovianski that I think we should stick to as much as possible: Most important is that every grammatical ending is instantly recognisable, even if the inflected form of a word looks different in someone's own language. For example, most Slavic languages can have various endings for the genitive singular of a masculine noun, but there is one ending they all have in common: -a, which therefore is the solution for all occurrences of this form. Most Slavic languages do not have a single genitive on -e, therefore I think this ending is not warranted.

Quote:
 
I wouldn't mind -i everywhere after a soft consonant, but I wouldn't mind keeping -e

Okay, but then please tell, why do you mind -u?

All in all, I am afraid that whatever we pin down as a rule, only non-Slavs will abide. Others will just do as they please, like they have been doing until now. Frankly, I don't think it matters very much which endings we pick. Options are numerous:

  • always -ě, without palatalisation (easiest, ≈Russian)
  • hard -ě, soft -i, palatalised velar (OCS)
  • hard -ě, soft -i, velar -u (Czech, Slovak)
  • hard -ě, soft/velar -u (Polish, ≈Sorbian)
  • always -u (easy, BCSM, Slovene)

I am not much in favour of the idea of adding second palatalisation, which would make things way more complicated than necessary for a lot of people. Besides, a locative "jezyce" would also kind of imply a nominative plural "jezyci".
I am not much in favour of using only -u either, because for most nouns goes that this solution has only 1 vote (against 4 for -ě).
At least after velars the locative ending -u is practically universal in Slavic (even in Ukrainian and Belarussian).

So to avoid second palatalisation of velars, I can imagine two solutions:

  • hard -ě, soft/velar -u (the current solution)
  • hard -ě, soft -i, velar -u

For understandability it doesn't make much of a difference.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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bandziol20
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tellur
Nov 17 2012, 06:53 PM
Bledomodra točka
Pogleďte nanovo na tutu točku. To jest tut. To jest naš dom. To jesmo my. Na njej, vsi, ktore ľūbite, vsi, ktore znajete, vsi, o ktoryh jeste kogdakoli slyšali, vsi ľudi, ktori se kogdakoli narodili, sut žili svoj život. Skupok našego veselija i trpenija, tysuče istyh religij, ideologij i ekonomičnyh doktrin, vsejaky lovec i sberač, vsejaky heroj i bojazlivec, vsejaky stvoriteľ i ničiteľ našej civilizaciji, vsejaky kraľ i sedlanec, vsejaka zaľubena dvojica, vsejaka mati i vsejaky otec, vsejake dete plne nadeje, vsejaky izmysliteľ i poiskateľ, vsejaky učiteľ moralky, vsejaky skaženy politik, vsejaka „superstar“, vsejaky veliky voditeľ, vsejaky svetec i grešnik, v historiji našego sveta je tut žil – na zrnke praha nahadžajučem se vo slunečnoj luči.

Zemja jest veľmi mala scena v nepregledno velikoj kosmičnoj arene. Pomyslite na reky krvi razlitoj vsemi tamtemi generalami i vladařami, da by se, vo vsej slave i triumfu, mogli stati momentalnymi gospodami toliko malej česti tutoj točky. Pomyslite na bezkonečne krutosti, ktore sut pretrpeli prebyvalci jednoj česti točky, ktori sut se razlikovali ot prebyvalcev na jej drugom koncu. pomyslite na to, jak česta sut byla ih neporozumenija, jak sut se ohotni ubijati, i jak česta je byla ih nenavisť.

Naša samopodoba, naše izmyšlene sebeznačenije, naša iluzija, že imajemo nekake privilegium vo Vsemire – to vse jest poraženo tutoj bledomodroj točkoj. Naša planeta jest osamely drobec v prevelikoj ťme. V toj našej mračnosti, v tutoj prazdnote Vsemira, ne prijde nijedna pomoč iz vne, ktora by nas sohranila ot nas samyh.

Zemja jest jedinym mestom, ktore znajemo, kde može bez poguby kotviti život. Nest nikde, prinajmeneje v najbližšoj budučnosti, kamo by človek mogl migrovati i kde by mogl prebyvati. Pobyvati – da. Nasedliti – ne. Podobaje se vam to ili ne, momentalno jest Zemja naš jediny dom.

Govori se, že astronomija nas uči skromnosti i buduje charakter. Pravdepodobno ne jestvuje nijedin lepši pokazateľ gluposti ľudskoj domyšlivosti než tuta slika našego malego sveta. Mne to znači našu otgovornosť i to, da jesmo k sobe prijateľščejši, i da sohranimo tutu bledomodru točku – naš jediny dom, ktory znajemo.
Heh... what to say, now - it seems to me the earlier version was better. :) It's a sooo heavy load, really, I had to force myself to read it.
Two places (constructions) were not clear for me :
Quote:
 
ktore sut pretrpeli prebyvalci jednoj česti točky, ktori sut se razlikovali ot prebyvalcev na jej drugom koncu.

what's a sense of this ? Is it consistent with an original sense ?
Quote:
 
naša iluzija, že imajemo nekake privilegium vo Vsemire – to vse jest poraženo tutoj bledomodroj točkoj.
I don't quite understand the second part of this statement.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
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I meant locative
and jezyce doesn't imply nominative plural jezyci, because Ukr. has jazyky with -y borrowed from the feminine flexion, which Russian also shares

Old East Slavic had jazyci, but it got changed to jazyky under the influence of žena -> ženy or similar
notice that non-velars also have this: bolgary not bolgari from bolgarin
ky -> ki change in Russian and that's how you get jazyki

I'm ok with u after velars, but counting BCS is wrong, it doesn't have a locative case, it copies forms from dative all forms
if you argue accent differences that's not right either, because then you'd have to have 13 noun cases in Russian (where meaning is decided by lexical stress)
Edited by iopq, Dec 4 2012, 06:12 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I basically agree with you. The only thing I'm not comfortable with is completely ignoring BCS and Slovene here, because even if the locative forms come from the dative, it is still a fact that any grammar lists them as "locative", not "dative". That is an important difference with Bulgarian, you won't find a grammar that says: "In Bulgarian, the locative of море is море". Therefore I do take into account South Slavic locatives on -u, just like I take into account Ukrainian and Slovak locatives on -ovi. It's just that the latter don't make it majority-wise anyway.

Looking at majorities:
hard: , obviously
soft: -i or -u
velar: -u

I can't see anything wrong in proposing multiple solutions in this case, but I'm not against a three-way distinction. However, I think we'll do ourselves a great favour if we can avoid second palatalisation.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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