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Pronouncing the soft and hard Ls
Topic Started: Oct 2 2012, 11:13 PM (353 Views)
Xfing
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The phonology listed on the site says that the letter l is pronounced like [l], while the letter ľ should be pronounced like [ʎ]. However, I checked [ʎ] in many sources, and it's actually closer to [j] than to [l].

Therefore, I suggest setting the standard pronunciation of the letter L to [ɫ]. That is the L from English, but also known from Czech and Russian. In Polish it's called "l sceniczne", in a tribute to old-timer actors who tend to pronounce our "ł" that way (while it's simply [w]). The letter ľ , on the other hand, should convey the regular [l] sound instead. Your thoughts?
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
L is a bit of a difficult case. Remember that in pes the P is rather not softened or anything, but in lěs or lev the L is definitely not pronounced [ɫ] - and we don't write ľev or ľěs.

Basically, I'd say the best pronunciation is [ɫ] before o, a, u, y; [ʎ] or lj before ě, i, and something like [l] before e.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
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I think this is a little complicated, Bulgarian and Ukrainian don't make this distinction at all

thus, the most baseline pronunciation (one that everyone can follow without an accent):
[l] before i, e
[ɫ] before u, o, a
[lʲ~ʎ] for l' or lj

a lot of Slavs won't distinguish between i and y in pronunciation anyway
do Czechs even pronounce byly and byli differently at all?
Edited by iopq, Oct 4 2012, 04:36 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

iopq
Oct 4 2012, 04:34 AM
do Czechs even pronounce byly and byli differently at all?
Not at all, /bili/ works for both.
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tellur
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Why not keep it simple and pronunce l as [l] and ľ as [ʎ] regardless of position?
Edited by tellur, Oct 4 2012, 10:56 AM.
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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iopq
Administrator
tellur
Oct 4 2012, 10:56 AM
Why not keep it simple and pronunce l as [l] and ľ as [ʎ] regardless of position?
because everyone pronounces either [l'] or [l] before front vowels even if it's supposed to be a hard sound like Ukrainian/Bulgarian ле it's still pronounced [l]

however, there's a tendency to either velarize or vocalize L in a lot of Slavic languages
Polish has universally accepted ɫ as [w], in BCS in a lot of positions it's o byɫ -> bio, in Bulgarian there's a tendency to pronounce it [w], in Ukrainian there's a lot of reflexes that go to unsyllabic [u], etc.

in those languages [l] would mean /l'/
/mel/ would sound like мель to most "hard L" languages
in fact, that's why borrowings from French in Russian are spelled with ль - French has [l] in all positions

[/u]
Edited by iopq, Oct 5 2012, 04:06 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Xfing
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iopq
Oct 4 2012, 04:34 AM
thus, the most baseline pronunciation (one that everyone can follow without an accent):
[l] before i, e
[ɫ] before u, o, a
[lʲ~ʎ] for l' or lj
Yeah, that sounds the most natural and sensible :)
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