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VERBS PARADE
Topic Started: Aug 14 2012, 08:50 AM (4,509 Views)
bandziol20
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I make this topic for Slovianski verbs. However, the concept is not only to find a new verb Slovianski, but rather to give a wider semantical context to make translations easier also for "old" verbs.
Let me show what I mean.

Let's take such a well-known verb like
OBEČATI = to promise.
(Hm... according to : http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/ms-en.html it's an imperfective verb ! which is sth strange, while in Polish it's for sure perfective, the same in Croatian (pf. obećati - ip. obećavati), in Russian is both perfective and imperfective, while пообещать - pf.;)
Ok...
OBEČATI (ip. ?) to promise (pf. poobečati ?)
You can give here some conjugated forms (especially, as they could be uneasy to derive) :
1sg. pres. : obečam - I promise, verbal noun : obečanje - promising , adj. participle : obečan - promised etc.
But an important thing is also to give a clues how the verb connect with (in)direct object.
You can do it by questions in right noun cases : to promise (sb sth) - obečati komu ? (Dat.), što ? (Acc.)
and finally illustrate by giving sentences :

I promise everyone anything he wants.
Obečam vsakomu što hoče.

She promised him help.
(Po)obečala mu pomoč.

*Of course, there's sometimes simple situations, where no noun declency is needed :
She promised to write. Obečala pisati.

:P
Here... I think you'll grasp the idea.

---
btw : I've got a simple list of English verbs with example sentences. Some of them are already in the Lexicon, some aren't, but all of them need work out. The most verbs are with A, C (co(n)-), P (pre-) and S !!!, T and W. The second numerous group are these with : D, E, F, R, W.
Anyone who would like to colaborate is welcome. ;)
Edited by bandziol20, Aug 14 2012, 08:50 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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bandziol20
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Recently, I've found a verb in Jan's Dictionary for "to yield" as "ustupati" which - I admit - has surprised me as it was given in this sense for the 1st (and) place. I wouldn't guess this meaning for Slavic counterpart at all. What's more in the Lexicon it is given as "skloniti se / sklanjati se".
That's why I ask kindly for Your translations of the sentences below :

1. The land yielded a good wheat crop. (to supply, to provide)
2. Careful analysis yielded the following conclusions.
:P

Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
Administrator
1. Zemja dala dobry zbor pszenici
2. Analiz dal konkluziju

you have to realize yield can also mean "to let the other car through"
I yielded to the car at the intersection
Ustupil prohod drugomu avto na preseczenje
Edited by iopq, Aug 16 2012, 09:47 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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Yes : dati (to give) fits here well (thanks !), but I wonder if there could be other, more specific propositions . I want just grasp all these main meanings of this verb, which as you see could be very different (1 English verb : some Slavic verbs).
By the way : what would be for adjective "careful" ? Could we use Polish ostrożny ?
Another thing : I've found in Slovene - cute verb for "to contain" = vsebovati. I think it's a product of XIX. century, however it's for me clear : vsebovati = imati v sebi.
CHEERS ! :)
Edited by bandziol20, Aug 16 2012, 10:51 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
Administrator
to me it sounds like byvati vsem - "to be all" c.f. Ukr. бувати
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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bandziol20
Aug 16 2012, 09:08 AM
1. The land yielded a good wheat crop. (to supply, to provide)
2. Careful analysis yielded the following conclusions.
I have been trying to find a "common" word form for your use of "yield" in the above English sentences - that is, where, "to yield" may also mean "to produce" "to result in" "to provide", etc.
Our Slavic languages have several forms; for example:
ru = давать, производить; урождаться, уродиться
be = рабіць, вырабляць
uk = давати, принести, виробляти, зароджувати
pl = dostarczać, dostarczyć; przynosić, przynieść]
cs = plodit; vyrábět, vyrobit;
sk = niesť (plody), prinášať; vzdať
sl = pridelovati, pridelati; roditi, obroditi (cereals, bear fruit); pridobivati, pridobiti (information, results)
hr = rađati, proizvesti, proizvoditi, dostaviti
Looking to the noun form: "a yield" "a harvest" - we have:
ru = урожай
uk = урожай
pl = urodzaj
cs = úroda
sl = úroda
hr = urod
sr = урод
mk = родот
bg = родитба
My point is that perhaps: "УРОЖАТИ" or "УРОДЖАТИ" may be the better understood form for all of our languages - to mean: "to produce" "to bear" "to yield" - of course, in the sense of "giving birth" to something.

Your thoughts?

Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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bandziol20
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I think davati (ip.) / dati (pf.) is quite clear. Now I see it's also in Russian and Ukrainian at the first place (?). I thought also about do-nesti / do-nositi or pri-nesti / pri-nositi.
An interesting form is also "proizvoditi / proizvesti" (in Russian and Croatian (but in this latter it could be a loan from Russian)). It derives from basic verb "vesti" = 'to lead'. Just look that the latter sentence we could modify and write :
Careful analysis lead to the following conclusions.

As for "УРОЖАТИ" or "УРОДЖАТИ", is not bad. However, I wonder how these forms could be applied in those sentences I wrote above. I mean : Would they be understandable as well as those with "dati" ?


Edited by bandziol20, Aug 17 2012, 08:16 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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bandziol20
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TO KNOCK ON/AT THE DOOR
usb = (za-)klepać (wo) durje,
pl = ( za-)pukać, (za-)stukać do drzwi
cz = zaklepat / zaťukat na dveře
sk = (za-)klopať na dvere; exp.: (za-)búchať / tĺcť / búšiť na dvere
sn = (po-)trkati na vrata
hr = (po-)kucati na vrata
bg = (по-)чукам на врата
ru = (по-)стучать в дверь

Once, I used klepati from Czech (though now klopati from Slovak looks cuter to me), but maybe there are better options. I'm curious of your opinions.
Edited by bandziol20, Aug 22 2012, 10:47 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I kinda of like klopati too, but that's perhaps because the Dutch equivalent is "kloppen". :)

On the other hand, I like pukati because of its onomatopaeic quality.

For the rest, Bulgarian and Macedonian also have тропа. Not that it makes much of a difference, though. Here are a few more:

be = (па)стукаць у дзверы
uk = (по)стукати до дверей
rue = пукати
dsb = klapaś

Which makes stukati the most probable solution (RU, BE, UK, PL); still kind of similar to čukati (MK, BG, ≈CZ).

So I'd say stukati v dveri.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Aug 22 2012, 12:50 PM
Which makes stukati the most probable solution (RU, BE, UK, PL); still kind of similar to čukati (MK, BG, ≈CZ).

So I'd say stukati v dveri.
Hmmm...
čukati... cukat in Czech means: "to tug, pull, yank" cukat se = to jerk, convulse
pukat = to crack, burst, puff on something
BUT:
ťukat/zaťukat = to tap, knock on something]
So "stukati" looks good. But, isn't it more common to say: "stukati na dveri" instead of "stukati v dveri" ?
:o ;)



Edited by steeven, Aug 22 2012, 04:39 PM.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
steeven
Aug 22 2012, 04:38 PM
So "stukati" looks good. But, isn't it more common to say: "stukati na dveri" instead of "stukati v dveri" ?
:o ;)
I think this really depends on what somebody's own language does. What looks natural for one person may look strange to another, but whether you write na, v or even do here, it's still understood. IMO there's no point in regulating this.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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bandziol20
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hm, pukati could be also.
Quote:
 
but whether you write na, v or even do here, it's still understood.
ok, just make sure the noun after preposition : na and v is in Acc.
Edited by bandziol20, Aug 23 2012, 09:59 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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steeven
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bandziol20
Aug 23 2012, 09:59 AM
ok, just make sure the noun after preposition : na and v is in Acc.
OK.
So for "dveri" what is accusative?

> the plural accusative of the "singular" form "dver" (which we don't use") would be: "dvery"
> the plural accusative of the "plural" form "dveri" would be "dveriy" / "двериы"
See: http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/declinator.html
^o) :blink: :unsure: :'( :ermm:
Edited by steeven, Aug 23 2012, 07:31 PM.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Eh? No no, dvery is a plurale tantum, dveriy is nonsense.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Aug 23 2012, 11:21 PM
dveriy is nonsense.
I agree.
But that is what the Noun Declinator yields when "dveri" is entered. Yes, yes, it is nonsense, but who knows what "rule" may be programmed? B)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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