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Using multiple reflexes of the same root in diferent meanings
Topic Started: Jun 16 2012, 04:36 PM (934 Views)
Moraczewski
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steeven
Jun 18 2012, 08:48 AM
Sorry folks, I just don't see that connection at all.
To me:
"cvet" = "color"
"kvet" = "flower"


If you wish to use "cvet" for flower, by all means do so.
My logic is that "cvet" for "color" will be far more often used than for "flower" - and, hence, "kvet" for "flower" will similarly be little used.
Well, this is just your own interpretation, and while it might be well known and understood by certain limited number of your collaborators, anyone outside your community (an average Slavic-speaking reader) will understand both cvet and kvet as "flower", and only few of them (Eastern Slavs) will understand "cvet" as colour.
Edited by Moraczewski, Jun 21 2012, 12:50 PM.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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steeven
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FLOWER
RU: цветок
BY: кветка
UA: квітка
PL: kwiat
CZ: květ
SK: kvet
SL: cvet
SH: cvijet
MK: цвет
BG: цвете


– kvet: 2 votes
– kvetka: 0.5 votes
– kvitka: 0.5 votes
TOTAL = 3 VOTES

– cvetok: 1 votes
– cvet: 1 votes
– cvijet: 0.5 votes
– cvete: 0.5 votes
TOTAL = 3 VOTES
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
TO BLOOM
Ukrainian: цвісти
Belarusian: цвесці

suddenly, the votes change to 4 to 2
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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tellur
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iopq
Jun 21 2012, 02:12 PM
TO BLOOM
Ukrainian: цвісти
Belarusian: цвесці

suddenly, the votes change to 4 to 2
Ne možeš tak isto brať vozhodne języky. Na jednų stranų jest tu cv-, no na drugų jest kv-. U zapadnyh si može čelověk byť isty. Vsegda jest samo kv-/gv-. V južnyh językah si takože možemo byť isti, jerbo v njih jestvųje vsegda samo cv-/zv-. No v ukrajinščině i běloruščině može byť kvit/květka povodna forma či to toliko može byť polsky vplyv. I tak samo s glagolami cvisti/cvěsci...Može to byť originalna forma či toliko russky vplyv...

No na drugų stranų imajeta obě jazykě slovo zvězda, nijedno gvězda...Možno ih dialekty imajųt formy s gv-. Napravdų ne znajų, no slovniky oficialnogo jęzka govori inače.

Za mene znaje toliko sam Bog, ktora forma jest povodna pro běloruščinų i ukrajinščinų. ;)
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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tellur
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No mysljų si, že to jest docěla jedno, jestli bųde forma s kv-/gv- ili cv-/zv-.
Zvězda/cvět bųde srazuměno tako isto jako gvězda/květ v dobrom kontekstě.
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
tellur
Jun 21 2012, 04:02 PM
No v ukrajinščině i běloruščině može byť kvit/květka povodna forma či to toliko može byť polsky vplyv. I tak samo s glagolami cvisti/cvěsci...Može to byť originalna forma či toliko russky vplyv...

No na drugų stranų imajeta obě jazykě slovo zvězda, nijedno gvězda...
Tęžko skazati, tęžko skazati. Slovo gvědza (sųglĺsno mojim slovnikam) ne jestvuje ni v ukrajinskom (зоря) ni v bělorusskom (зорка). Problem jest, že sųt jedino někoje slova togo tipa. Ukrajinski imaje квіт i jednočasno цвісти. Ukrajinski takože imaje квилити (Polski kwilić, Srbohrvatski cviljeti). A bělorusski imaje ne toliko цвісці, ale takože квітнець.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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iopq
Jun 21 2012, 02:12 PM
TO BLOOM
Ukrainian: цвісти
Belarusian: цвесці
IJzeren Jan
 
Ukrajinski imaje квіт i jednočasno цвісти. Ukrajinski takože imaje квилити (Polski kwilić, Srbohrvatski cviljeti). A bělorusski imaje ne toliko цвісці, ale takože квітнець.
I Ukrajinski takože imaje ješče "заквітати" - "розквітати".
Dľatego, vazmožno by bylo najdobrejše ako imamo oba slova?
B)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
I don't see the reason to have both, it's just confusing since the majority of speakers just have one
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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I double Igor.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I triple Igor in so far that I really don't think we should go the way of using South Slavic reflexes and West Slavic reflexes of the same word in different meanings. That pretty much undermines the whole idea of Slovianski, and if we go that way, we'll end up assigning different meanings to "grod" and "grad".

All in all, there are really very few words that were affected by the kv/gv > cv/zv changes. There's květ, there's zvězda, and there are only a few more. We know that South Slavic including OCS has cv/zv (although apparently not without exceptions), West Slavic retains kv/gv. Opinions about East Slavic differ. I've read somewhere that cv/zv is the standard, and Ukrainian kvit is a polonism, somewhere alse that Russian cvet and zvezda are borrowings from OCS. I am inclined towards the latter solution, but that still makes it a case of 3/3 votes, with a population majority for cv/zv. I also don't think kv is easier for cv speakers than vice versa, so ultimately it doesn't matter much which solution wins.

But both květ and cvět have the primary meaning of "flower", and that includes Russian цветок. Russian and Bulgarian AFAIK are the only languages that use it for "colour" as well, which, in terms of levels, makes it a category 3 word at best, albeit a lousy one, because I'm sure other Slavs are not likely to understand it in this meaning at all.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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