| Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
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| Using multiple reflexes of the same root in diferent meanings | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 16 2012, 04:36 PM (935 Views) | |
| steeven | Jun 16 2012, 04:36 PM Post #1 |
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Old issue/question: Why "cvet" for "flower" and not "kvet"? To me it is far wiser to distinguish between "colour" versus "flower" - than to use the same word for both meanings. |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 16 2012, 04:49 PM Post #2 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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West Slavic has kv-/gv- in these cases, South Slavic (incl. OCS) has cv-/zv-. What the real development in East Slavic has been, is kind of debatable, because all in all, there are very few of these words. Russian has цвет and звезда, but that may be OCS influence, while Ukrainian квіт may be Polish influence. BTW that goes for both colour and flower, which derive from the same word. Using both cvět and květ would be nonsense. For colour it's best to use "kolor", which is unambiguous and understandable for everybody. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Jun 17 2012, 08:07 PM Post #3 |
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Jan, Well, we come again to two schools of thought here. I call it "Slavic Pride or Traditionalism" - which translates to: more often using Slavic word forms than non-Slavic ones. Yes, yes...in the grander view - all word forms derive from the Indo European and thus they are "related" (excluding, of course, the non-IE word-forms; but even here one can argue that there is even a more grander view, and that, like our DNA, all hail from the same "source"; but I'm not following that dog here). The popularity of NS is, IMHO, tied to its "concept" of giving OCS (or at least Proto-Slavic) a fresh blood infusion for the modern Slavophile. I chose not to be as atavistic as this; except in those circumstances where a modern "commonly understood" Slavic word form cannot be found, but a reasonably well-understood Proto-Slavic form does exist (or even a reasonably well-understood modern single language word form exists - e.g. jestvovat ~ SK). Thus, I will not use the form "kolor"; I'm not thrilled about using the word "barva" either, and if there were a reasonable proto-slavic form available that would be understood by a majority of our speakers, I would use it. For world or color, I will use the word "svet" - for "flower" or the month of April, I will use the form "kvet" This ties in with remarks made by both Kozica in a recent posting. He wrote: "if you guys, most "fluent" in yours project not wish to use it more often even it this forum, what's the point? What is make here, happens many times in the past. peoples contemplate a language in an office, surrounded by dictionaries. but true language never happens like that." I use Interslavic daily - in my business - along with a small group of about 50 other people. Most of us choose to use "Slavic" words - that is, we use "cvet" instead of "kolor". And, to maintain a distinction, "kvet" has trumped "cvet" for flower (although if one wishes to use this word form, that is OK). We also use three different forms of suffixes for "people" - creating a "standardisation" which does not always follow the Slavic forms - and is, in fact, a "hang-over" from Slovio: -nik - for any person -nec or ec - for a man -nica or -ica - for a woman. We use this daily and constantly. Not theoretically. We use it in live business - and, in a business where clarity of words is of vital importance (the Law). Thus, a Bulgarnik will always mean a male or female Bulgarian. A Bulgarnec or Bulgarin wil always mean a Bulgarian man; a Bulgarka or Bulgarnica - a Bulgarian female. Yes, it does smack of Esperantoism - or Slovio; but, again, it works and is used daily and not theoretically. So, when I come to this forum, I must always don a different hat. A hat of theory. I do not see anything wrong with having Esperantoisms in Interslavic - and identify them as such - as Level 5. What, pray tell, is so challenging about this? Edited by steeven, Jun 17 2012, 08:08 PM.
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| Kozica | Jun 17 2012, 09:00 PM Post #4 |
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dla mne roza jest kvetom kolora czrvenogo ili kvetom barvy czrvenoj. "cvet" bez dobrego konteksta ne bude razumet'. |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Jun 18 2012, 04:46 AM Post #5 |
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Using "cvet" for colour and "kvet" for flower at the same time is the same nonsense as using "grod" for city and "grad" for castle, or "mesto" for city and "misto" for place, or "jazyk" for tongue and "jezyk" for language, "sen" for daydream and "son" for nightdream, "breg" for river shore and "bereg" for sea shore, "zemja" for soil and "Zemľa" for Earth, "medžu" for between and "mezu" for among. |
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| nonik | Jun 18 2012, 05:59 AM Post #6 |
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souhlas cvet-flower kolor/barva-colour grad-city mesto-place tvrdja-fortress zamok-castle zemja-earth soil-prst,tlo,role,grunt...libo-čo, nynie ne znam |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 18 2012, 07:07 AM Post #7 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Gabriel wrote almost literally what I wanted to write here. Yes, that's the point: if we starting distinguishing between cvět and květ, or between grad and grod, then we get the same kind of etymological inconsistencies you see in Slovio, and the whole language becomes completely unpredictable. Let's face it: if you want to try writing something in Slovio, you will have to look up every single word (unless you have learned them, of course), while OTOH writing Slovianski intuitively (without looking up words or just a few) works pretty well. The trouble is also that these distinctions make sense only to those who have really learned the language. That may work by consensus between a group of people, but it doesn't change the fact that in South Slavic cvet is exactly the same word was West Slavic kvet, |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Jun 18 2012, 08:48 AM Post #8 |
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Sorry folks, I just don't see that connection at all. To me: "cvet" = "color" "kvet" = "flower" "zamok" = "castle" "grad" = "city" "grod" = has no meaning in MS "tvrdža" = "fortress" "mesto" = "place" or "seat" "jezyk" = "language" or "tongue" "jazyk" = has no meaning in MS "son" = "dream" or "sleep" "sen" = has no meaning in MS I would prefer that "barva" be limited to "paint colour" only - but..... If you wish to use "cvet" for flower, by all means do so. My logic is that "cvet" for "color" will be far more often used than for "flower" - and, hence, "kvet" for "flower" will similarly be little used. Gabriel - since you write in NMS, you will probably write "ķvět" in either case, no?
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| Kozica | Jun 18 2012, 08:51 AM Post #9 |
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Jest v tom czo zlogo? polski tak ma angliski takoże tak ma ibo ma "polish language" i "mother tongue" możesz takoże povedet' "speech" i każdy umny anglik to zna v polski takoże "zachód" jednako znaczi "sunset" i "west", "wschód" - "sunrise" i "east", "północ" - "north" i "midnight", "południe" - "south" i "noon/midday" i nikto nie ma problema tak "nonsens" to nie jest :p |
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| iopq | Jun 18 2012, 11:48 AM Post #10 |
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Administrator
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bulgarnik je nekto kto bulgari bolgarin je czlovek iz Bolgarije |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| iopq | Jun 18 2012, 11:51 AM Post #11 |
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Administrator
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ima jednu formu za oba Edited by iopq, Jun 18 2012, 11:51 AM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| tellur | Jun 18 2012, 04:18 PM Post #12 |
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Možeš mi skazati, Steevene, jak veliky imaš uspěh s upotrěbovanijem medžuslovjanskogo?:) |
| My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements. | |
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| steeven | Jun 18 2012, 04:31 PM Post #13 |
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Martine/tellur: Videm tvojo pytanje. No sejčas začinam svoj den' praci. Potom!... ![]() |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 18 2012, 06:25 PM Post #14 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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There's actually a better name for that: purism. There are also English equivalents, like Ander-Saxon and Anglish.
Yes, I agree. I have said this very often myself: most people don't like and/or trust conlangs, and the number of people who would ever consider studying one is extremely small. Believe me, I have a looong history both as a conlanger and a person studying other conlangs, and I know pretty well by experience how the average person responds to things like "language construction" and "artificial language". The usual response varies from polite desinterest to outright hostility. Sad but true. Even though NS is equally artificial as Slovianski, it presents itself a lot better by posing itself as a modern successor of OCS.
That's understandable since you started your experiment with Slovio. But please be aware that such solutions can function only by mutual consensus and agreement. For one-way communication outside this community these endings are of very limited value: -nik does not refer to any person, it's a masculine form with a specific meaning in Slavic. -nec doesn't exist anywhere at all. These things may work for Slovio, because Slovio is an Esperanto competitor that requires learning on both parts. But in any real Interslavic endings shouldn't be used in a different way than any ignorant reader would understand it. And I don't see the value of some Slovianski/Slovio hybrid.
Yes, but again, this works only for people who have agreed on using and understanding these forms. For me, a "Bulgarnik" is a person who "does Bulgarians", and a "Bulgarnec" might be come kind of cooking pan. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| bandziol20 | Jun 21 2012, 08:44 AM Post #15 |
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bulgar - bulgar-ka, sloven-ec, sloven-ka. That's all. I see no reason for making such mixed suffixes as -nec and etc. . It really doesn't solve one single thing, but instead increases mess.Great : it already mean 'light' (in Russian) and world in Polish (świat) Edited by bandziol20, Jun 21 2012, 08:45 AM.
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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2:14 PM Jul 11