| Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
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| Voting; pros and cons | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 13 2012, 12:09 PM (685 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 13 2012, 12:09 PM Post #1 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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What's so funny about it? |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| bandziol20 | Jun 13 2012, 02:12 PM Post #2 |
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For me it's the same logic as guessing whether it would be a storm counting number of clouds.
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 13 2012, 02:45 PM Post #3 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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In a one-man project it's different, because everything depends solely on the author. This, however, has never been a one-man project, it has been a project with multiple participants from the beginning. You're a conlanger yourself, so you probably know that collaborative conlang projects almost never work - especially on the longer run. The only thing to make such a thing a success nevertheless is eliminating personal preferences and tastes, and go by objective criteria as much as possible. One way of achieving that is "voting", which in fact is of course not real voting, but weighing input from various languages. IMO that's the only sensible way to achieve equal treatment of West, East and South Slavic input. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| bandziol20 | Jun 15 2012, 12:07 PM Post #4 |
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No, it's not a sensible argument; if ever it's rather a cheap argument for choking up people who believe that voting or weighing is the way how conlangs arise and develop.
Edited by bandziol20, Jun 15 2012, 12:07 PM.
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 15 2012, 01:23 PM Post #5 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Oh please, come on now! Conlangs don't "arise": they emerge in someone's head/at someone's desk, and either they stay there, or people pick them up and start using them. And that's basically how they "develop", too: in the very same head at the very same desk. Real, organic development happens only when thousands of users use it constantly over a timespan of decades, and is largely based on consensus by its users. Only two conlangs have ever come that far: Volapük and Esperanto. In the case of Volapük this development resulted in conflicts between the creator and several prominent users, ultimately causing the whole movement to fall apart into numerous small volapükids, while in the case of Esperanto it led to some naturally-developed modifications and the appearance of dozens of esperantidos. The difference between Interslavic and projects like Esperanto and Volapük is, among other things, that Interslavic has never had a single standard. If you compare Interslavic writings over the centuries, you'll find that in most cases it is the same language, yet written differently. We are not trying to set a standard here, only to apply some objective criteria in establishing why certain solutions are to be preferred over other solutions. Our problem is that we are constantly dealing with some fifteen input languages + several dozens of people with their own ideas about what's best for Interslavic. That means inevitably that sometimes we need to make a choice between eight different natural options as well as several artificial solutions. You may not like voting or weighing, but until now I haven't heard any reasonable and workable alternative. Mind, in case you have misunderstood the voting process, it is not merely a matter of inventarising which words exist in which languages; the question how well various options are understood by speakers of various languages is also taken into consideration. Obviously, it's impossible to find a word for every concept that is understood by everybody. And you will probably agree that a word that is understood only by Slovenes is less suitable for Interslavic than a word that is understood by everybody but the Slovenes. That very fact alone already implies some form of weighing. That still doesn't mean weighing is the only thing that decides. It means that weighing is a starting point, and that you'll need pretty good arguments if you want to propose something different. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how a result is achieved, what matters is that is works. And for the time being I haven't seen any clear indications that our current approach doesn't work. Of course, suggestions for improvement are always welcome, but there's no point in constantly bickering about the basics, because that won't get us anywhere and is just a waste of time. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Jun 15 2012, 03:29 PM Post #6 |
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Amen |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| bandziol20 | Jun 16 2012, 07:46 AM Post #7 |
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OK, so they are based on subjective decisions. Nothing new. Could you tell me what you mean by a single standard ? or rather give examples of it ? If there’s no standard, how you can judge that something is bad or doesn’t fit to the Slovianski ? Now that what I see is a whole range given for manipulation.
First, I want only remind you that Slovianski arose on a very strong assumption that Slavic languages are rather similar than not. Second, if you get 15 different inputs from voting I don’t understand how it’s going to “help” the Slovianski (whatever you mean by that) anyway. Third, people (several dozens ? wow ! I didn’t even realize)with ideas aren’t something to damage. REALLY : sometimes have good ideas worth to consider. So I don’t think reject it by argument of weighing system is sth good. In other words you say : You really don't need pretty good arguments if only you've got good weighing. The truth is pretty good arguments are ALWAYS welcome, but weighing is of crappy one. Now, that’s interesting – I want just see this how you cope with only 8 different natural options. And what are conditions for artificial solutions ? So you must have closed eyes. Take “a steel”, “a proverb” and so on, and you see what swamp is this whole weighing is. I say Slovianski works rather despite this silly weighing than because of it. Weighing is an useless beaurocracy at its best and soaping eyes for providing arbitral decisions at its worst. ![]() Btw : Take this example with Slovene. How does it serve this weighing system ? It implies that if word is only in Slovene it's automatically not understand for other languages.
My proposition is to base on the words that COULD be understood by ALL slavic (not necessary they actually are in ALL / MAJORITY*of Slavic languages of Slavic languages or even they exist already) : basing on common Slavic roots in every language and on the system of clear derivation and add internationalisms if it’s needed.
Now that’s what I like.
At least - try ! Still : I don’t see how weighing gives you advantage at this point.
And who is next to sacrifize ? what about a word which understood only by Slovenes + Croatians + Serbian + Macedonian + Bulgarian against a word which is understood by all but the Slovenes + Croatians + Serbian + Macedonian + Bulgarian ? Man…
No, not necessary. By weighing you just calculate how many people’s potentially do understood the word and how many perhaps don’t. Besides words of the same root and of the same look in different Slavic language could mean sth else.
Starting point ? You must be joking ! Starting point to what ? Let’s say a word you pick has a. 80% (or b. 70% or c. 60 %) of votes. What does it mean for you ? So now what ? What are next steps ?
This is no basics of language. It's nothing more than a Czech-Polish-Russian voting treaty. ![]() |
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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| iopq | Jun 16 2012, 08:05 AM Post #8 |
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Administrator
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so how do you determine majority does Polabian and OCS count? does BCS count as one or does serbian count as one, croatian count as one, etc. does Silesian count? does Rusyn count? Does Pannonian Rusyn count? well shit, it seems that determining what a majority is is not a simple task should we count the smallest language as much as Russian? in my book, if Russians have no idea what a word means it's a pretty shitty majority considering it's actually a minority population-wise |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| bandziol20 | Jun 16 2012, 08:17 AM Post #9 |
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It's rather not me who have to define "majority" or counting and weighing votes, I leave it for "better-vote-wisers". I have no problem with a word from little speaker Slavic nation such as Upper Sorbian as a base for a word in Slovianski, if only it could be understood by other languages. Actual system just ignoring these words from Upper-Sorbian, if only they aren't in Russian-Polish-Czech area. |
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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| iopq | Jun 16 2012, 08:55 AM Post #10 |
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Administrator
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Sure, but what do you define as "understood by other languages" how many other languages? If it's not all of them, how do you compare it to a Russian word that is understood by other languages? Which word is better? How do you determine this? btw Slovianski is strongly South Slavic-Russian-OCS biased |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| bandziol20 | Jun 16 2012, 09:24 AM Post #11 |
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Sometimes both words are good and should be accepted. In other cases, the morphology decides which better fits (or it's simpler) to the whole system. Counting millions of Russians and comparing to millions of Slovenes is useless. By understood in other language I mean that lexeme or root with the same meaning exist in other groups. Let's say, that I pick up a word from USB, which is Western Slavic Language. It's a good word if it has good morphology and counterpart in root with the same meaning in Belarussian or Russian (as Eastern languages), and in Bulgarian or Slovene (or any other from Southern group). That's all. There is no need for counting or weighing, but rather knowledge which word belongs to which Slavic group (e, w, s). |
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 16 2012, 10:19 AM Post #12 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Well, in writing to begin with. Some write in Cyrillic, others in Latin. When writing in Latin, some use the whole range of characters from NMS, others don't even write y, prefer sz over š, etc. Some write "težko do izgovořenja", others "težko čoby izgovoriti", others "težko da bi izgovorili" etc. Some use "byh", others "by", etc.etc.etc.
Yep, but that doesn't change the fact that an untrained Pole won't understand much of a text in Slovene, Bulgarian or even Russian. So step number one is eliminating elements that distinguish one language from all the others.
Voting rarely gives 15 different inputs. Usually it's somewhere between three and five, and usually there are not more than two solutions that exist in more than one language. Obviously, if there are fifteen inputs, then voting won't solve anything.
Good ideas are always worth considering, of course. Thing is, it is rarely about good ideas, but mostly about personal preferences. Igor just wrote: if a word isn't understood by Russians, then it isn't understood by ˝ of the Slavs and so it's bad. Steeven has a thing for avoiding international vocabulary and using calques from English, others believe international vocabulary is the key towards understanding. Some want to avoid artificiality at all cost, others see it as the cure to all diseases. And so on...
No, weighing is just the starting point. There are several cases where majority solutions are overruled by minority solutions, just because the latter are easier to understand for the former than vice versa. As you as, good arguments are always welcome. But you can't fill a dictionary by having an 8-page thread about each individual word.
This really depends from case to case. Question number one is: what words do the various languages have for a certain concept? Question number two is: how are these different words understood by speakers of other languages? Especially this latter question is important, because a Slavic word can either: 1 mean exactly the same 2 have a meaning that is close, and thus be understood in the right context 3 not be understood at all 4 be misunderstood This can't be grasped in general rules. Take as an example this zapamętati/zapomněti thing, which depending on the language can mean "forget" or "remember", more than enough reason to avoid using both. But how about a word like "zabyti"? I mean, if you write i instead of y, then you get the Polish word for "to kill"! Still, that is another kind of false friend, because there's always context.
On the contrary, because of that we know that languages use: "pri-" or "po-", the root "-slov-", followed by a suffix. To find out, you first need to inventarise.
Says who? It seems you've really misunderstood this whole voting thing. If a word exists only in Slovene, but is intuitively perfectly understandable to others, while the same cannot be said about other solutions with more votes, then this is our solution. There are examples of that in the dictionary.
Bravo, that's precisely what we are doing! And it sounds very nice indeed, in theory. Sadly, it happens often that there IS NO WORD that is understandable to everybody. It's an illusion that Slovianski will be 100% understandable for 100%. Not even to mention that fact that not every Pole understands "budu", even those who do will have to cope with words they don't understand. But a person can still understand a text without understanding every single word of it. The trick is to control the number of these words, so that a Serbian can understand it about as well as a Pole. But even you use the word "majority". Our idea for majority is based on treating West, East and South Slavic equally. I'm not saying that's the only way, but I honestly believe it's the best way. If we look at the number of speakers (especially also L2 speakers), then we might as well drop the whole idea of Interslavic, because over 2/3 of all Slavs understand Russian. If you follow the one language one vote principle, then you get 4 East Slavic languages vs. 6-9 West Slavic languages vs. God knows how many South Slavic languages.
If there is no better alternative available, yes. It's still better to use a word that won't be understood by 30 million than a word that won't be understood by the remaining 90%.
If a word is use in approximately the same meaning by a larger number of Slavic languages, preferable transgressing the borders between West, East And South Slavic, then you can call it an Interslavic word. That does not automatically mean it is understood by everybody. If there are more candidates for a word that are equally Interslavic, then there's nothing wrong with including them both. After all, what is Interslavic? It's not only one-way communication with the entire Slavic world, it's also a conversation between a Pole and a Bulgarian. If your audience is f.ex. South Slavic only, it's clear that some choices should be different from when you're addressing a mixed Polish/Ukrainian audience.
Sometimes. There are all kinds of treaties: RU-UK-BE-PL, UK-BE-PL-CZ-SK, RU-SL-SH-MK-BG, CZ-SK-SL-SH-MK-BG... It is true that South Slavic is more often outvoted than West or East Slavic, but that is kind of inevitable given the fact that South Slavic drifted away from the Common Slavic base further than the other two. But on the other hand, South Slavs are still relatively overrepresented in the vote (1/3 vs. 1/10 of the population), and in doubtful cases South Slavic are often given the benefit of the doubt. Also in cases like "dľa" vs "za" and "vy-" vs. "iz-" the South Slavic solution is preferred despite the fact that the majority does something different, because "za" and "iz-" are still understandable in the North, while "dľa" and "vy-" don't ring a bell in the South. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jun 16 2012, 08:34 PM Post #13 |
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what if the word belongs to the East group, but only in Ukrainian and Belarusian but not Russian? We have many cases of West Slavic/Ukr/Bel vs. South Slavic/Russian our current solution is to accept both as variants but if there's no system the same case might come up and may get treated differently by dictionary authors, some may feel only the form that exists in Russian is correct because Russian is a more important language, while others might feel too many Russian forms is bad for the language |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| bandziol20 | Jun 17 2012, 10:07 AM Post #14 |
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I'm glad to hear that. However, it doesn't look that there is much of such situations, but I could be wrong.
Yeah, there's a big chance your chosen word is a polonism. well in that case we should check if there is such lexeme (or root) in Bulgarian or other Southern Slavic.all and all : the fact of being from one language or another shouldn't be an argument to approve or to reject any word. What counts is : simplicity of the word, clearity in structure or declency, fitting to other already approved words in Slovianski.
What you mean by system ? If you mean a hierarchy of languages or, in opposite, an attempt to make equal chances for each language, I say : these both attitudes are blind streets.
of course, people will always have their preferences and should vote for what they like. However their personal choices shouldn't serve as an excuse for lack of flavorisation or ignoring the rule of understandability by other languages.
Situation is ambiguos : there could be more than one solution : a. both are good b. one is good, one is bad c. both are bad. To decide whether it's good or bad, should depend on some fixed "inner" Slovianski criteria, f. e. phonological : PS. ę comes into e, and not -(j)a-, but also morphological : that we've got -ec, but not -ca, -nec etc. (however, I wouldn't be so strict or fast in rejecting useful suffixes) Edited by bandziol20, Jun 17 2012, 10:12 AM.
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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| Kozica | Jun 17 2012, 11:56 AM Post #15 |
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languages arise because people use them. languages evolve because people use them. when people stop use them they die. when people never used them at all, they never exist. this forum prove that the best and only interslavic language is a basic english. if you guys, most "fluent" in yours project not wish to use it more often even it this forum, what's the point? What is make here, happens many times in the past. peoples contemplate a language in an office, surrounded by dictionaries. but true language never happens like that. there are some people in the word who teach their children esperato and those children freaks parents minds - start to use esperanto in different ways, create new words etc. Some people try to teach their babies klingons, and failed because language lack useful domestic worlds. what i want to say is: there is no point in fight for words and forms, you are not using. but if you will try to express yourself in "slovjanski" and you will find that nobody/somebody understand your point then you are prof that somethings work/not work. And that "precedent" count more that any voting/office/table divagations, because is empiric. |
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well in that case we should check if there is such lexeme (or root) in Bulgarian or other Southern Slavic.
2:17 PM Jul 11