| Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestičstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестичство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Inflected conditional | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Nov 22 2011, 06:13 PM (573 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Nov 22 2011, 06:13 PM Post #1 |
Jan van Steenbergen
|
Curiously, the inflected conditional is more wide-spread than the imperfect or the aorist. The modern East Slavic languages, Slovak, Lower Sorbian, Slovene and Macedonian simply use by as a particle, but the remaining languages have some sort of inflection here. Old Church Slavonic had a special conditional of the verb byti "to be": bim, bi, bi, bimъ, biste, bǫ/bišę. Interestingly, this form doesn't seem to have survived anywhere. Instead. the modern languages that inflect by use a reflex of the aorist of the same verb, which in OCS looks like this: byhъ, by, by, byhomъ, byste, byšę. Old Russian used the same: byhъ, by, by, byhomъ, byste, byša. Again, I'm omitting the dual. Polish has: bym, byś, by, byśmy, byście, by, which apparently is rather a contraction of the particle by with short forms of the verb "to be" (similar to Slovak by som) than a continuation of the aorist/conditional found in Old Polish: bych, by, by, bychom (later: bychmy), byście, bychą[/b] (later: by). Upper Sorbian has something very similar to Old Polish: bych, by, by, bychmy, byšće, bychu. Czech uses innovations in the 2nd person singular and the 3rd person plural: bych, byš, by, bychom, byste, by. For the rest, Serbo-Croat has bih, bi, bi, bismo, biste, bi and Bulgarian has bih, bi, bi, bihme, bihte, biha. Interestingly, I found the following set in Čakavian dialects: bim, biš, bi, bimo, bite, bi, which might be a continuation of the ancient conditional, but it's more likely that this is in fact the particle by with normal verb endings attached to it. NS has byh, bys, by, byhom, byste, by(hu):
|
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
 |
 
|
| Dynozaur | Nov 22 2011, 06:29 PM Post #2 |
|
But NS has the imperfect tense, so I think that the endings of the conditional particle should be the same as imperfect* (except in 2nd and 3rd person singular). Most modern languages have lost the aorist and imperfect and this is why this particle decayed in most languages. But NS has the imperfect, with all the original endings. So I think the best choice for NS is: byh/by**/by/byhom***/byste/byhu. *I know that the conditional particle derives from the aorist of the verb "to be". But since NS's imperfect fulfills a joint role of both Proto-Slavic aorist and imperfect, I think these forms could be reanalyzed as imperfect. **I agree that the form "bys" is a rather bad idea. ***Or "byhme" and change the imperfect 1st plural ending to -hme. But I like -hom, for some reason. By the way, how does hovorová čestina handle this word? For some reason, I doubt that it uses all these archaic endings. Edited by Dynozaur, Nov 22 2011, 06:32 PM.
|
|
|
|
| IJzeren Jan | Nov 22 2011, 06:38 PM Post #3 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
Well, no. Aorist and imperfect were similar (and I think Vojta took the right decision merging them), but not the same thing. Primary difference is -še in the imperfect (2/3sg.), where the aorist had a zero ending. Now I doubt very much if anyone who isn't a South Slav would ever guess that pisa means "you/he/she wrote". Conditional is slighly different. It comes clearly from the aorist, but that doesn't make it one. Czech has a conditional, but no aorist, while in Macedonian it's the opposite. Theoretically, all inflected forms would be voted out by by anyway, but I think ja byh, my by[ho/h/s]m[o/e/y] and vy byste are at least supported by a solid minority. Ty/on/ona byše is both non-existent and ahistorical - and needlessly complicated for the by people. EDIT: BTW, if you really want to distinguish between the 2rd and 3rd person singular, then use byš, which at least can easily be recognised as a second person singular. Edited by IJzeren Jan, Nov 22 2011, 06:40 PM.
|
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
|
|
|
| tellur | Nov 22 2011, 08:07 PM Post #4 |
|
Jan: Standard Czech doesn't use byš, it's a total nonsense even for dialects. We use form BYS which is directly corresponding to polish byś. So bys is actually attested (bys should be the same in Slovak and I believe Kashubian too) but it still makes me confused why Vojta chose this form. Even OCS had би here Dynozaur:Czech dialects (or hovorová čeština) handle this pretty easy (well except part of Czech-Polish border where users are confused with Polish bym): Across the whole area, sg. forms 1.bych 2.bys 3.by and pl. forms 1.bysme (instead of bychom) 2.byste 3.by This whole aorist/imperfective/conditional thing is pretty complicated mess. But I am still curious about some forms in NS. Vojta has chosen pretty clearly forms which comes from aorist but why the hell did he chose ending for 1st person dual imperfect -hova instead of hovie? OCS had -hovѣ in this case. -hova is in both soft and hard conjugation in NS and even in conditional and imperfect! Edited by tellur, Nov 22 2011, 08:09 PM.
|
| Žiti znači vojevati. Proto vojevaj tak dolgo, kak možeš, da bys mogl čo najlučše žiti. | |
|
|
|
| Dynozaur | Nov 22 2011, 09:25 PM Post #5 |
|
I'm by no means telling to introduce such monstrous forms like "on byše". I'm just saying that the conditional endings should be kept as similar to imperfect endings as possible (but without resorting to artificial solutions).
To be honest, I have never heard about -hovѣ. In all OCS grammar books I've seen -vѣ in present tense but -hova in Imperfect. However, this can be averted in NS by using -va in the present tense (which is a very early alternative of -vѣ. It's preserved in Slovene and Polish dialects, while -vѣ seems to be gone forever). Edited by Dynozaur, Nov 22 2011, 09:29 PM.
|
|
|
|
| wannabeme | Nov 22 2011, 09:43 PM Post #6 |
|
Try to apply this rules which protoslavic had. Verb stem+ S + personal endings. S on the end of the word disappears. S between vowels a and u and o becomes H. S before E or I becomes Š. Ending T in 3rd ps falls off too. |
|
|
|
| tellur | Nov 22 2011, 10:56 PM Post #7 |
|
Dynozaur, check this site. -Hovѣ form in dual imperfect is right there from my main source about anything ocs related. http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ocsol-1-X.html#Ocs01_GP04_02 Edited by tellur, Nov 22 2011, 10:59 PM.
|
| Žiti znači vojevati. Proto vojevaj tak dolgo, kak možeš, da bys mogl čo najlučše žiti. | |
|
|
|
| IJzeren Jan | Nov 23 2011, 02:05 AM Post #8 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
Tellur's right. I have two different OCS grammars here (T. Lehr-Spławiński, L. Moszczyński), and both say: 1du. -vě, 2du. -ta, 3du. -te. That goes both for present, imperfect and aorist. [čćч] |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
|
|
|
| wannabeme | Nov 23 2011, 10:04 AM Post #9 |
|
Ending vě, or va, te or ta depends on the gender. Ny dva muža sva dělala. Ny dva muža dělahva (or dělasva). Ny dvě ženě svě dělalě. Ny dvě ženě dělahvě. (or dělasvě). Vy dva muža sta dělala. Vy dva muža dělasta. Vy dvě ženě stě dělalě. Vy dvě ženě dělastě. Ona dva muža sta dělala. Ona dva muža dělasta. Oně dvě ženě stě dělalě. Oně dvě ženě dělastě. |
|
|
|
| wannabeme | Nov 23 2011, 10:12 AM Post #10 |
|
Churchslavonic aorist of to be is + etymology: Ja byh (bySu > byhu > byhъ) / bym (probably by adding athematic ending -m) Ty by (bySsi > bys > by) On byst (bySt > bys' > by) Ny bysva Vy bysta Ona bysta My byhom (bySom > byhom or bysom>bysmo) Vy byste Oni byšę (bySęt > byšę(t)) Edited by wannabeme, Nov 23 2011, 10:16 AM.
|
|
|
|
| Dynozaur | Nov 23 2011, 02:41 PM Post #11 |
|
Is this the Serbian recension of Church Slavonic? Edited by Dynozaur, Nov 23 2011, 02:42 PM.
|
|
|
|
| wannabeme | Nov 26 2011, 10:27 AM Post #12 |
|
I'd say Oldchurchslavonic. If you want I can give you the source that I read from. |
|
|
|
| IJzeren Jan | Nov 26 2011, 10:45 AM Post #13 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
Please do! I've checked this in both my OCS grammars, and they don't mention this at all! |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
|
|
|
| Dynozaur | Dec 1 2011, 08:59 PM Post #14 |
|
I would like to know your source too. Is it a book or a website? |
|
|
|
| tellur | Dec 23 2011, 02:07 AM Post #15 |
|
So what conditionals do we have in Slovianski? I can only read on steeven's site that one needs to use personal pronoun and particle by (or at least I've understood this way)... ja by delal ty by delal on/ona/ono by delal/a/o my by delali etc Is there any more naturalistic way without personal pronouns like NS does it? :O |
| Žiti znači vojevati. Proto vojevaj tak dolgo, kak možeš, da bys mogl čo najlučše žiti. | |
|
|
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Novosloviensky · Next Topic » |
3:04 PM Jun 19