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Pisanje mekkih i jotovanyh suglasok; Writing soft and iotated consonants
Topic Started: Jan 11 2012, 10:17 AM (1,559 Views)
iopq
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IJzeren Jan
 
Simply by writing je, at least after a vowel.

It's a bit of a different case when the jot comes directly after a consonant. In that case it's also je in most cases. However, there's also a special category, namely when a jer comes before j. What you're getting then is a so-called "tense jer". The behaviour of these babies is kind of difficult to tame, and can differ greatly between languages or even within one language. It explains differences like -ние vs. -ння vs. -nie vs. -nje, and like -ый vs. -ой vs. -ы, but also differences like Russian людей vs. Polish ludzi, etc. Basically, it's hard to find a standard recipe for these cases, therefore IMO it's best to just stick to the original and write dělaňje, piťje etc. Like I said, reflexes in Slavic are different. South Slavic tends to kick out the jer and produce a jotated consonant, East Slavic tends to vocalise the jer, while in West Slavic it's the jot that goes first, causing the preceding consonant to get softened, not jotated.

Because in the Slavic languages the differences between the reflexes of lj and ľ, rj and ř etc. are minimal, and the differences between lj/rj and ľj/řj are not, we've chosen the following solution (which, admittedly, is just a convention):
LJ and LЬ > Ľ, while LЬJ > LJ
RJ and RЬ > Ř, while RЬJ > RJ
NJ and NЬ > Ň, while NЬJ > LJ

In the case of T D S Z ST ZD, a following J can only mean softening/palatalisation, because when iotated, they become Č DŽ Š Ž ŠČ ŽDŽ

In other words, what Slovianski does is not 100% right: instead of moľeny and govořeny, it should be moljeny and govorjeny. However, we also need to distinguish between moře and primořje, and that's why we have chosen for this convention.

The altenative solution would be using the j as a softener, in which case we would write ljubiti, konj, carj, govorjeny etc. That can work very well (and personally, I wonder if I wouldn't have preferred it), however, in that case we'd need to write delaňje, piťje, primořje, česťju, koťji, etc. to keep this very important distinction (yes, the OCS solution for verbal nouns is sometimes -ije, but that solution won't work for kostiju, f.ex.).

A third solution (similar to what Slovianski did before 2009 or so): to avoid ugly stuff like solidarnostj, we use hačeks/apostrophes only syllable-finally, so koň/konja, bořba, delaňje, kosť/kosti/kosťju/kostjah... The disadvantage of this kind of cosmetics is of course that then you start applying two different spellings for exactly the same phoneme.

hold on, though, vesiti > veszany because it's SJ so moliti > mol'eny because it's LJ
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Jun 7 2012, 08:00 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yes, but that's a matter of representation. There is a grammatical difference between Ľ and LJ, but not a phonological one. So there's nothing wrong with writing moljeny and varjeny, as long as you keep in mind that there is a difference with f.ex. Usoľje and primořje.

Ľ just means: L + Ь
LJ means: L+J
ĽJ means: LЬ+J (tense jer)

Thing is only, ľ and lj, ň and nj, ř and rj merge in all Slavic languages, so there's not much point in distinguishing them in writing. That's why LJ is equally good as Ľ. What matters more is to keep it distinguished from ĽJ.

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Moraczewski
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I don't understand the difference between moljeny and Usoľje and no ordinary user will. Mind you that writing ľ is optional, so Usolje must be equally correct.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Of course! Mind you, I'm writing about what it IS, not about how you write it. Most ordinary users won't be able to tell the difference. Especially West and South Slavs, because they have ľ resp. lj in all posisions. They don't distinguish between moře and primořje either, mind.

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iopq
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Moraczewski
Jan 12 2012, 06:49 AM
I don't understand the difference between moljeny and Usoľje and no ordinary user will. Mind you that writing ľ is optional, so Usolje must be equally correct.
it's moľeny and usolje
so even if it's optional it's still moleny and usolje and distinguished
Edited by iopq, Mar 18 2012, 02:09 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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How can one know that it's allowed to write moleny and it's not allowed to write Usole?
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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iopq
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Moraczewski
Mar 19 2012, 07:12 AM
How can one know that it's allowed to write moleny and it's not allowed to write Usole?
because you can remove diacritics, but not whole letters
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Bandziol20
 
IJzeren Jan
 
Bandziol20
 
imo : je for -ě in all cases is a stable solution and you don't have to looking for special fonts :P

Indeed, but if you start writing it that way, you'll end up with an abundancy of j: povjestj, cjeljovanje. Which would not only be unaesthetic, it also harms readability.

Not at all. In the end of word I write t' or simply t, so povjest'. Cjelovanje (j after l is abundant).

Oh please no. If there's one thing we have learnt during the development of Slovianski, it is that apostrophes as an equivalent to ь should be avoided. That's why we ultimately decided to use diacritics instead. If people want to write T' instead of Ť, that's their freedom, of course.

You might as well say that in Polish the stroke in mały is abundant, because there are no occurrences of the sequence l + y anyway. As far as I am concerned, there is a clear difference between poľe/poľa and maly/male.

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Edited by IJzeren Jan, Jun 7 2012, 08:07 AM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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bandziol20
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It's a different pair of galoshes. -tj in the end looks awful even if you write it as povestj / pověstj.
BTW : I am for writing polje / polja, but poľe/poľa for me looks good, too.
Quote:
 
maly/male
What does "male" mean here ? Is it adjective in plural or what ?
Edited by bandziol20, Jun 6 2012, 12:45 PM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yes, adjective plural.

And I agree that -tj at the end of a word looks kind of awful (unlike carj, bolj and konj, which we know at least from Slovene. Although in all fairness it should also be said that it's nothing one couldn't get used to. Besides, if you look at any text in Interslavic, you'll see that the number of occurrences of or in a normal text is fairly limited.

But yes, it's theoretically possible to replace all cases of ľ ň ř ť ď ś ź with lj nj rj tj dj sj zj. Iotated tj dj sj zj have their own reflexes anyway (in MS č dž š ž), while iotated lj nj rj merge with soft ľ ň ř. The only exceptions are of course cases like dělaňje and kosťjų.

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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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bandziol20
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IJzeren Jan
Jun 6 2012, 12:58 PM
unlike carj, bolj and konj, which we know at least from Slovene
In Slovene there's no carJ - only car (however in oblique cases -rj- shows up).
Quote:
 
Besides, if you look at any text in Interslavic, you'll see that the number of occurrences of or in a normal text is fairly limited.

I hope it isn't limited ON BEHALF of -tj / -dj, or is it ?
Quote:
 
while iotated lj nj rj merge with soft ľ ň ř.

I see no need for that.
Quote:
 
The only exceptions are of course cases like dělaňje and kosťjų.

I would write it straight : delanje, kostju. That's all.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
bandziol20
Jun 6 2012, 01:08 PM
IJzeren Jan
Jun 6 2012, 12:58 PM
unlike carj, bolj and konj, which we know at least from Slovene
In Slovene there's no carJ - only car (however in oblique cases -rj- shows up).
Aha, yes, right. But I've gotten used to it anyway, since Matija Majar-Ziljski writes it that way in his Uzajemni Pravopis Slavjanski.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Besides, if you look at any text in Interslavic, you'll see that the number of occurrences of or in a normal text is fairly limited.

I hope it isn't limited ON BEHALF of -tj / -dj, or is it ?

Eh? No no, it's just that 2006 Slovianski had infinitives on -t' (you can still see samples of that on several places, f.ex. on Rosto's site), and because ę > ja, we also had cases like t'agnut' and d'akovat' (now: tegnuti and dekovati). Just perform a character search on any longer text, and you'll see how little occurrences of ť and ď there really are: the former mostly in the nominative of words on -osť, the ď practically never.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
while iotated lj nj rj merge with soft ľ ň ř.

I see no need for that.

What do you mean? They merge in all Slavic languages!

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
The only exceptions are of course cases like dělaňje and kosťjų.

I would write it straight : delanje, kostju. That's all.

Sure, and that's what Slovianski does.

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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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bandziol20
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IJzeren Jan
Jun 6 2012, 01:45 PM
Just perform a character search on any longer text, and you'll see how little occurrences of ť and ď there really are: the former mostly in the nominative of words on -osť, the ď practically never.
So - what is the recent standard in Slovianski for such words like kosť (bone) or želuď (acorn) ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Simply kosť and želuď.

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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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steeven
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:blink:
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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