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Assimilation by softness
Topic Started: Jun 3 2012, 08:39 AM (1,412 Views)
bandziol20
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OK. Just correct this :
Code:
 
willow verba nf 1

tvorba '(art)work' ? (from tvoriti 'to make, to create')
usb = twórba
cz = tvorba
sn = tvorba
hr = tvorba
Edited by bandziol20, Jun 8 2012, 10:00 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
Administrator
tvor'ba if it's the same suffix as bor'ba
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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imO we should simplify it.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Remember that piśmo, svaťba, bořba, poľski are prototypes. Anyone is free to write pismo, svatba, borba, polski.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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steeven
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bandziol20
Jun 8 2012, 09:46 AM
tvorba '(art)work' ? (from tvoriti 'to make, to create')
Some words to consider:
Serbo-Croation:
creature = stvorenje
creation = stvaranje
creative = stvaralački
stvoriti = to create
stvarati = to create, to produce
tvoriti - to be constituent of, to form
Russian:
творить - create, act, run, operate (impf)
сотворить - create, make, originate (perf)
боготворить - idolize, worship, adore
затворить - close, shut
олицетворить - represent, personify, embody
отворить - open
претворить - realize, translate; convert, transform (претворять impf)
растворить - dilute, dissolve, solve (растворять)
удовлетворить - please, satisfy, sustain
натворить - do, cause, get up to
притворить - half-close (притворять)
умиротворить - pacify, appease, conciliate (умиротворять impf)
Polish:
tworzyć - create (impf)
stworzyć - create (perf)
otworzyć - open, inaugurate, release
utworzyć - establish, found, launch, install, create, form, shape

Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
bandziol20
Jun 9 2012, 06:44 AM
imO we should simplify it.
veřba would be something like "belief" from veriti
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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but it shouldn't. IMO it should be just : vrba.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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bandziol20
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steeven
Jun 9 2012, 09:05 PM
creature = stvorenje
creation = stvaranje
stvorenje as a gerund from a perfective verb stvoriti mean both an achievement of the action (creation of sth) and a product of an action (creature).
stvaranje is a gerund from an iterative imperfective verb stvarati which is derived from a perfective stvoriti (in Slovianski it probably should be : stvoriti - stvarJati - stvarJanje, Polish : stworzyć - stwarzać - stwarzanie). It means : "making new things again and again".
For 'creation' as a human activity itself (with no define final effect) could be also tvorjenje as a durative process, from imperfective tvoriti.

Quote:
 
затворить - close, shut
отворить - open
Heh... watch out ! These two don't exactly fit to this family of tvoriti 'to create'. They have appeared by the process of false "morphological perintegration" of old Slavic verb otvoriti - to open.
Otvoriti is derived straight from otvor 'opening', but this word should indeed divide not o-tvor but ot-vor. This ot- is an old Slavic prefix ( also preposition ot 'from', comp. Polish od, Russian от).
The root -vor is a gerund form from old Slavic verb vreti (to stick, to cling, to press, to close). Nowadays in Polish this root is present not only in this ot-wór, otwierać, otworzyć (old pl oTewrzeć > oDewrzeć, hence oTwarty 'open' (adj.), more popular than 'otworzony'), but also in Polish wór 'sack', zawór 'valve', zwora 'cramp, clamp, dowel', sfora 'a pack of hounds', niesforny 'unruly, indocile', sworzeń 'a pivot, bolt, pin'.

On the base of this bad perintegration of otvoriti 'to open' as o-tvoriti (instead of ot-voriti), za-tvoriti has been arisen with an opposite sense 'to close'.
It's a very common change among Slavic languages, in Croatian : otvoriti -> zatvoriti, dial. Polish otworzyć -> zatworzyć, while in standard Polish we still have an old verb zawrzeć (pf.), zawierać (ip.) with the meaning 'to close sth' > 'to place sth in sth' > 'to place sth in itself' > 'to contain sth'.
An interesting situatian is in Slovak - indeed it has got both forms : zavrieť and zatvoriť .

So, at first we had :
za-vrěti 'to close' - ot-vrěti 'to open' (cz. otevříti) (pf.) both from vreti (ip.) 'to stick, to press' (comp. Polish wrzeć 'to boil, to bubble' about water - molecules of water press on each other while boiling and go upward; look also Croatian verati se for 'to climb', Lith. verti 'to open')
Then we impefectized these :
zaverati 'to close' - otverati 'to open' (ip.)
Meantime we derived zavor 'closer' - otvor 'opening' as nouns from these verbs above.
Then we derived from otvor - otvoriti (pf.) as 'to open' and in contrast to that by coincidence with tvoriti - this opposite verb za-tvoriti 'to close' arose (that's why in Croatian is zatvor for 'arrest, prison').

The same old ot- is in Polish otręby 'bran' which has nothing to do with trąba 'trumpet' but in real goes from old ot-rąbati (to cut off).

Just don't adjust these "uncorrect" archaic forms into oDvor or oDruby, please.
Code:
 
open parachute odvorjeny parašut t 1
open tennis championship odvoreny tenicovy čempionat t 1
:(

Edited by bandziol20, Jun 10 2012, 11:05 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yes, I agree, it's otvoriti and not odvoriti.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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steeven
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bandziol20
Jun 10 2012, 09:06 AM
Code:
 
open parachute odvorjeny parašut t 1
open tennis championship odvoreny tenicovy čempionat t 1
:(

Code:
 
open parachute otvořeny parašut t 1
open tennis championship otvořeny tenicovy čempionat t 1
open tennis championship otvořeny tenisny čempionat t 1
:)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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bandziol20
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I think it would be better avoid this ř and replace it by rj, since not many people has this font (unless you're Czech). In this situation could appear differences between the text with Latin and the text with Cyrillic letters (with soft yer font).
BTW, I would have nothing against writing otvoreny (with lack of haczek) if we decided that r was dispalatalized first. Otherwise it would seem to be inconsistent for other consonants like m, n, l which get -jen for a passive participle. :P

EDIT : By the way I think : s / z + -jen should give = šen / žen.
Edited by bandziol20, Jun 11 2012, 10:18 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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bandziol20
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What is a plural form of -ski ending ? I'm asking because I've found such examples like :
Code:
 
SeverIrlandskje protestanisti i katolikisti North Ireland protestants and catholics t 1
Sauditskja Arabija Saudi Arabia 1 1
morskja stena seawall n 1
Britskje Devicove Ostrovi (.vg) Virgin Islands British land n 1

? SeverIrlandskje ? protestanisti ? katolikisti ? Devicove ? brrr...
BTW :
Code:
 
podtiskjenje suppression nn 1

if ever - *skj > -szcz-
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
Administrator
I think podtiskivanje is the more logical derivation anyway
or something like podtisknenje but that sounds kinda Polish to me
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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iopq
Administrator
Note Ukr. відрубай - bran
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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BRAN
sn = otrubi
hsb = wotruby
sk = otruby
pl = otręby
(all in plural number)


Edited by bandziol20, Jun 11 2012, 10:00 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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