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| Assimilation by softness | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 3 2012, 08:39 AM (1,409 Views) | |
| iopq | Jun 3 2012, 08:39 AM Post #1 |
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What are the rules concerning this? For example, does l assimilate softness from other consonants? If we have a proform like *školьnъjь we can figure out the first two parts: škoľ + ny based on our rules now do we write škoľny or školny? most languages allow the l to carry its own softness without assimilating the hardness from n however, *bedьnъjь becomes bedny and not *beďny because we assimilate d'ny into dny of course consonants that can't be soft don't do this: svaťba doesn't get hardened into svatba |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 3 2012, 09:48 AM Post #2 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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In Polish Soften: l ľ > ľ: škoľny n ň > ň (before -ski, -stvo): koňski s ś z ź > ś ź: kvaśny, groźny (before -ski: ś-ski and ź-ski > ski) k č g ž h š > č ž š: ručny (before -ski: č-ski > cki, ž-ski and š-ski > ski) Harden: n ň > n (before -ny): konny r ř > r: lekarski t ć d dź > t d (whereas t-ski and d-ski > cki and dzki) [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jun 3 2012, 11:56 AM Post #3 |
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it's not "soften" the L was soft to begin with because the suffixes are *ьnъ, *ьskъ, *ьba Ukrainian has progressive assimilation in these cases as well: братський (so not only does the t remain soft, but the s softens as well) in cases where there's a ж there's sometimes variants: Запорізьский / Запоріжський although the first is more common Russian only has regressive assimilation in cases like братский so it's fairly cut and dry: only L carries its own softening, everything else is hard I like the simplicity of what it is in Russian, we don't want to distinguish too many cases like -ski from -ny |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 3 2012, 08:04 PM Post #4 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I agree, no reason to distinguish whatever happens before -ny, -ski, -stvo etc. I also agree that softening doesn't really add anything to understandability. Even to a Pole, kvasny, bratski, grozny etc. are completely clear. I occurs to me that we have discussed this before and concluded that the consonant before -ski and -ny is always hard (except in cases where palatalisation is required, of course), even in the case of l: a) because it is simpler, b) because even though it is a minority solution, it is still attested in several languages, c) because školny, Suhodolski etc. are completely understandable anyway. Of course, there are a few minimal pairs, like pňlny vs. poľny and vňlny vs. voľny, but nothing that can't be taken care of by context. Mind, that's what we decided for Slovianski. In Naučny I suppose we should stick to the majority and have škoľný. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jun 4 2012, 04:32 AM Post #5 |
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that's only because some languages lost l/l' distinction if we limit it to East Slavic/Polish/Slovak/Slovenian/BCS it's like 4 votes out 4.5 |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 4 2012, 05:19 PM Post #6 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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You can't blindly link Polish Ł to MS L and Polish L to MS Ľ. Etymologically, yes. But phonologically Polish L is in fact a lot closer to MS L then to MS Ľ. And in writing, školny is obviously closer to Polish szkolny than škoľny. I'm not saying Ľ is wrong, all I'm saying is that it is not needed. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jun 4 2012, 09:16 PM Post #7 |
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except MS L is a velarized sound and the Polish L is not normalny in Polish to a Russian sounds like нормальный because it's not velarized besides, if we tell Poles Ł = MS L and L = Ľ it follows we should be consistent with it except for loans |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 4 2012, 09:37 PM Post #8 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Basically agreed. Anyway, it's not a big issue. Like I said, in NMS it should probably be ĽNY and ĽSKI anyway. It's just that in normal writing I'd rather like to cut down the number of diacritics to the necessary minimum. As a matter of fact, when I read over my own texts in MS, I feel more and more inclined to write RJ, LJ etc. instead of Ř, Ľ. But sure, that's just a matter of taste. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jun 7 2012, 09:46 AM Post #9 |
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those are just spelling variants, but I'd much prefer poljski to polski |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 7 2012, 05:08 PM Post #10 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Okay, so before -ny, -nik, -ski, -stvo etc. the rule is: * Soft consonants except Ľ become hard * L softens to Ľ * Velar consonants palatalise (K G H > Č Ž Š) * Other consonants remain as they are Right? [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| bandziol20 | Jun 8 2012, 07:50 AM Post #11 |
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I propose to write simply r (not ř, nor rj) before other consonant : bor-ba. Edited by bandziol20, Jun 8 2012, 07:51 AM.
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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| iopq | Jun 8 2012, 09:21 AM Post #12 |
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not consistent with gaňba, svaťba, etc. Edited by iopq, Jun 8 2012, 09:22 AM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| iopq | Jun 8 2012, 09:22 AM Post #13 |
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seems good to me |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| bandziol20 | Jun 8 2012, 09:37 AM Post #14 |
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What will be your proposition for "a willow" (a tree) ? |
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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| iopq | Jun 8 2012, 09:42 AM Post #15 |
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Administrator
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vrba, we don't distinguish between yers in combination with liquids |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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2:14 PM Jul 11