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Щ
Topic Started: Dec 5 2011, 08:34 PM (498 Views)
Moraczewski
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 5 2011, 06:25 PM
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Really? Since when do we have щ in cyrillic?
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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steeven
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Moraczewski
Dec 5 2011, 08:34 PM
IJzeren Jan
Dec 5 2011, 06:25 PM
пущати
Really? Since when do we have щ in cyrillic?
Strange, I always thought that we had " Щ " within the "official" alphabet - (even for Slovioski); but I just looked and saw that we do not.
Why not?
We should include it:

Arguments in favor: ____________
Arguments against: ____________
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
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шч is actually not that common of a combination
I'd rather have a letter for ст, it's three times more common
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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шч is attested in Belarusian and it is unambigious in terms of pronunciation and conversion to latinica.
The pronunciation of щ is different in Ukrainian, Bulgarian and Russian, this may cause common mistakes when converting щ to latinica: št and š, šš or even ś
Finally, щ is alien to Serbian and Macedonian cyrillic - and they object against я, ю as well.

Having a letter for st is against basic principles of Slovianski: Slovianski achieves <..> [maximum intelligibility for all Slavs] by incorporating the commonalities of the living Slavic languages.
Edited by Moraczewski, Dec 6 2011, 08:07 AM.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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iopq
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of course, but that's also my argument for not having a letter for шч
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
No, standard Slovianski doesn't have щ and neither should it. Pronunciation-wise, it's too confusing. Besides, I'd rather not use it for шч, but (if anything) only for шћ, as is the case in pušćati.

Still, it's a completely unnecessary and redundant character, if you ask me. About as pointless as the letter x for ks or ѱ for ps.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Moraczewski
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I would be wise to move this discussion to separate orthography-related thread. This will avoid further questions about whether should we have щ or not.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Done!
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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tellur
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 6 2011, 05:19 PM
No, standard Slovianski doesn't have щ and neither should it. Pronunciation-wise, it's too confusing. Besides, I'd rather not use it for шч, but (if anything) only for шћ, as is the case in pušćati.

Still, it's a completely unnecessary and redundant character, if you ask me. About as pointless as the letter x for ks or ѱ for ps.

Well, how will I, or any other person, know whether to write шч or щ (шћ) without knowing anything about the word, specifically its etymology?
Edited by tellur, Dec 7 2011, 10:28 AM.
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
tellur
Dec 7 2011, 10:25 AM
Well, how will I, or any other person, know whether to write шч or щ (шћ) without knowing anything about the word, specifically its etymology?
Prolly you wouldn't. That's why there's no point in using this character.

In general: šč/шч comes from sk + front vowel or j, while šć/шћ comes from stj.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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bandziol20
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 7 2011, 11:51 AM
In general: šč/шч comes from sk + front vowel or j, while šć/шћ comes from stj.
Maybe some examples ? I doubt if it's necessery to distinguish these two cases, but I wonder where would these splitters occur in a living language.
F.e.: Are you for s radošću = with joy ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
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tьj != tj

example: *hotjǫ = hoću vs. *sobytьje = sobytje
Edited by iopq, Dec 19 2011, 05:42 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yes indeed! tьj > tj > ć is something South Slavic. West Slavic does the opposite: tьj > tь > ť.

So we should distinguish between světja, vratjǫ on one hand, and kostьjǫ and žitьje on the other.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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bandziol20
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 19 2011, 11:47 AM
Yes indeed! tьj > tj > ć is something South Slavic. West Slavic does the opposite: tьj > tь > ť.

So we should distinguish between světja, vratjǫ on one hand, and kostьjǫ and žitьje on the other.
It's a different pair of galoshes.
tj, dj in Polish has come to soft c, dz (świeca, miedza).
t', d' in Polish has come to soft ć, dź (ćma, dźwig)
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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