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| E.Sl.+W.Sl. vy-/iz- versus W.Sl. vy- versus S.Sl. iz- | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 23 2011, 02:07 PM (443 Views) | |
| tellur | Oct 23 2011, 02:07 PM Post #1 |
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One question has been keeping me busy for a long time, yet I can't find any practical solution/reference. I can't think of any example right now but I'll describe it. I believe that all of you surely encountered this conflict. There are plenty of West+East Slavic panslavic stems which can add prefix vy- to them (vyrobiti, vygladiti, vymysleti, vydělati, vymahati, vypljuvati/vypljuvnuti etc). But South Slavs only use the prefix iz- (can't think of any since I'm no S.Sl. speaker). Let's take some sentence:Vyrobil je jej podarok, no je si treboval vymysleti niejakij navъrg. I'm sure this would be 100 % understandable for every Northern speaker but sentence Izrobil/izdielal je jej podarok, no je si treboval izmysleti niejakij navъrg. 100 % understandability for every South speaker but what about the others? It's easy when one learns that vy-=iz- in all cases but casual Slav doesn't know this and would have to guess the meaning of the verb from context. How does Slovianski solve this conflict? Having both and letting the speaker decide the meaning from the context or what? Note that I haven't checked Interslavic dictionary so far. It's even more complicated since there is no iz- but z- in West Slavic (Czech zhloupnout/zhloupět; Polish zgłupieć and others) AND more complicated when you think of Russian verbs as избавить, избегнуть, измышлять, изгладить etc. Is there any verb with iz- which isn't borrowed from Russian or do the BEL and UKR have z- as a result of big Western influence on these two? P.S.Novoslovienskij solves it rather easy...As a continuation of OCS it does have iz- only. But I think vy- is also pretty and should be in any panslav language together with iz-! Edited by tellur, Oct 23 2011, 02:12 PM.
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| My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements. | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 23 2011, 02:27 PM Post #2 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Yes, you raise a valid point. Before we started discussing this, the dictionary was quite a mess. We had some forms with vy-, other forms with iz-, some duplicates. West and East Slavic have vy- only, South Slavic has iz- only. AFAIK all Russian verbs with iz- are in fact borrowings from OCS. So vy- wins with 4 votes against 2. However, all Slavic languages have the preposition (i)z-, and as a result, iz- should be intuitively understandable for West and especially East Slavs anyway, while vy- for a South Slavic without any prior knowledge doesn't mean anything. That's why we decided to give priority to iz- (just like NS does), while vy- remains optional. In the dictionary, this is solved by giving all verbs in their iz- form, and having one entry: vy- see iz-. Right now, I'm in the process of merging Steeven's IS lexicon with my own IS dictionary. This also brought up the question what approach to choose for vy-/iz- words. What makes this thing especially difficult is that not every single instance of vy- in North Slavic can easily be substituted by iz- without changing the meaning, and vice versa. These are exceptions, though - in virtually all cases it works without a problem. The new combinated "lexionary" will have doublets: izmysliti/vymysliti. All in all, it's not much of a learning burden: Both North and South Slavs should only learn one prefix, and texts in numerous languages suddenly become easier for them. Ideally, North Slavic writers should use iz-, South Slavic writers vy-, if you ask me. ![]() EDIT: BTW, note that West Slavic z- almost always corresponds with the prefix s(o)- and rarely with (i)z-. That's why iztvoriti matches Polish wytworzyć and s`tvoriti matches stworzyć. One exception I've encountered is Polish zgniły "rotten", which seems to match South Slavic izgnil. [čćч] Edited by IJzeren Jan, Oct 23 2011, 04:03 PM.
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| tellur | Oct 23 2011, 05:27 PM Post #3 |
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Thank you Jan for your answer! One never stops learning
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| My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements. | |
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| iopq | Oct 26 2011, 06:49 AM Post #4 |
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Administrator
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Ukrainian kind of just said screw it, merge iz- with zo- and it has zi- изогнул ~ зігнув but also согнул ~ зігнув the short form is still z-, though Edited by iopq, Oct 26 2011, 06:50 AM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| bandziol20 | May 10 2012, 07:59 AM Post #5 |
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Well, it's not necessery in this case, because Croatian does have sagnio 'rotten', while in Russian there is : сгнить 'to get rotten' (pf.). |
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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