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| Memorandum of the interslavic community about slovio from september 2011 | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 14 2011, 10:07 AM (1,600 Views) | |
| Vojtech | Sep 14 2011, 10:07 AM Post #1 |
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I think we need to write in English (and maybe also in our languages) a memorandum about our joint project (Neoslavonic + Slovianski) and its relationship to language Slovio of Mark Hucko. I want to write it decently, apologetically but firmly and truthfully to what he does to us. Then we shall put this text on all our sites. What do you think? Here is my suggestion (I apologize for the use of English, but this is probably needed in this case): MEMORANDUM OF THE INTERSLAVIC COMMUNITY ABOUT SLOVIO FROM SEPTEMBER 2011 INTRODUCTION Like many other large language families, the similarities among Slavic languages have inspired language creators to build a universal artificial Slavic language. Either just for fun, or with the purpose of creating a language understandable for speakers of different Slavic languages. During the course of history, which covers the very successful Old Church Slavonic language by Sts. Cyrill and Methodius from 9th century, languages of Sime Budinic and Johannes Commenius from 16th century, many similar historical attempts by people from different Slavic nations have been made at a Slavic conlang projects in period from 17th century to the 19th and early 20th century. Sometimes these efforts have a political (religion, pan-slavism, ...) background, sometimes they are simply based on the assumption that the Slavic languages are obviously similar enough to each other to make such a language possible at all. (this piece of text is reused from JvS pages) Mr. Mark Hucko was one from the the first modern slavic conlangers (creators of constructed languages). He made his Slovio in 1999 on almost the same principle as the Esperanto but using a big advantage in that it used the Slavic word roots. Unfortunately, the significant drawback of the Slovio language is the artificiality of its grammar. This project was initially received with enthusiasm on the Internet, but interest in it later fizzled. Artificiality of Slovio makes that native Slavs do not want to use it among themselves. On the other hand, we confess with appreciation to the hard Mark's work, that Slovio still can play interesting role at non-Slavs and people with Slavic ancestry in foreign countries. For these people is the simplicity and artificiality of Slovio grammar a great challenge and easy opportunity "to touch" them the slavic world. Slovio showed all people a feasible way how to design the simplest possible slavic-like conlang having minimalistic grammar and morphology. For all the above reasons, over the past 20 years, there were several different attempts to create a slavic conlang, being more in the centre of language continuum of naturaly spoken slavic languages (cases, genders, perfective/imperfective mode, verbal persons and tenses, ...). These project were Glagolica, Proslava, Panslavensk, Slavido, Slovioski, and several others. TWO BRANCHES OF THE INTERSLAVIC PROJECT All these former projects have resulted today into our two collaborative and community projects: Neoslavonic = Novoslovienski and Slovianski = Slovjanski. They are very similar projects, which together have a common vocabulary and one common goal: Using naturalism principle, to create a universal Slavic conlang, which Slavs would understand without the need for them to learn it, and actively use this language after very minimal learning. Both projects now co-operate together, our project members write and read in both languages, discusses the Internet on the same forums, share the same disctionary, and also have a common dictionary named INTERSLAVIC LEXICON, newspaper IZVIESTIJA.info and many discussion forums. Moreover, the labeling INTERSLAVIC is reserved as our common description for both projects. Differences between these two languages are about as follows: SLOVIANSKI Slovianski strives for simplicity and is based on common words of today's living languages. Its grammar contains only selected forms common to all or the significant majority of languages. (??? about 3 sentences more ???) NEOSLAVONIC Neoslavonic language (= Novoslovienski, Novoslovienskij jezyk) is the artifficial extrapolation of the old church slavonic language from the early medieval, when it was the common literacy language for all Slavs. Therefore, neoslavonic contains additional words which, while in today's languages are no longer used, are still known in today's slavic continuum as poetry, archaisms or survived in derived words. Also, neoslavonic grammar is more complex because it is the de-facto continuation of the old grammar of the language, covering grammatical forms from almost all today's living languages. DISCUSSION To simply conclude this description, Slovianski is designed more as an logical intersection of current living languages, but Neoslavonic is designed more as the logical unification of current living languages on the Church Slavonic basis. Today it is hard to decide which of the two approaches is better. It is very likely that our two approaches will both inspire and enrich each other. The Neoslavonic branch of the project assume that somewhat greater complexity of the language we need, because we have to solve this problem: The conlang-awared traveller who arrives in some other Slavic country will speak to the local people in conlang and it is expected they will understand him well. But the local people will not respond to him in the same conlang, but in their home native slavic language. Therefore we strongly need, that the conlang must also facilitate his user the passive (e.g. receptive) understanding of the local spoken language. This is the reason why Neoslavonic has richer grammar, more pronouns, more verbal tenses, more conjuctions, etc. Even so, it is not very complicated language at all. Basic overview of neoslavonic grammar is fit on only two A4 pages. ??? Here should be similar explanation of Slovianski strategy in one paragraph. ???CONCLUSION We all in our both groups know we still are in the beginning. We need to practice, we need to produce more texts and we need better feedback from other people. We ourselves are the collaborative creators of our conlangs, and therefore cannot have the best view how to solve this problem in general. So we started doing joint cooperation and promotion of each other. Spoken languages are living things and we know that no conlang (Esperanto, Interlingue, ...) nor reconstructed modern national language (Slovak, Irish, Hebrew, ...) in the world is used in the exactly same form as it has been firstly published by its authors. We were several times invited also Mark Hucko to cooperate and we do appreciate his pioneering work. But he is angry at us that in his opinion we misused his original idea. Mark Hucko recently produced new variants of his old language Slovio, called Rusanto, Novoslovianski, etc. Moreover, he writes on the various Internet pages, that our projects are plagiarisms of his work. INTERSLAVIC COMMUNITY, September 2011 (and here should be list of our most important sites, our names are not necessary I guess) http://dict.slovioski.com http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/index http://www.facebook.com/groups/neoslavonic http://izviestija.info Edited by iopq, Sep 15 2011, 06:09 PM.
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| Moraczewski | Sep 14 2011, 10:44 AM Post #2 |
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I am afraid that this text will make things even more complicated for non-Slavic newcomers. Instead of discussing differences between Slovio and our projects the text focuses largely on differences between Novoslovienski and Slovianski which are not interesting for non-Slavic readers and are very subtle to be of any importance for them. Finally this text doesn't mention that a non-Slavic newcomer has a possibility to simplify Slovianski - to write it without cases, verbal aspects and so on until it is finally simplified to Slovianto. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| bandziol20 | Sep 14 2011, 01:31 PM Post #3 |
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I think it should be shorter
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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| Vojtech | Sep 14 2011, 01:37 PM Post #4 |
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Hi Steeven, understand this text as the very early draft. ad 1) Yes, sure. This part is missing. Should be written as a new section "PROJECT SLOVIO" just after the INTRODUCTION. Thank You for Your comment. ad 2) Definitely. Again many thanks. This matter about more levels of the interslavic language is the best content for the new last paragraph of DISCUSSION, don't You think? VM |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 14 2011, 01:58 PM Post #5 |
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Vojta, I am not Steeven I am Andrej |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Sep 14 2011, 03:10 PM Post #6 |
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. . . . . . |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| steeven | Sep 14 2011, 04:39 PM Post #7 |
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Vojta, Your text is an excellent first draft, thank you. Andrej (Moraczewski) raises two very good points; I also agree with Bandziol that "less verbiage" would probably be more helpful to newcomers. The evolution of "Interslavic" has been remarkable. For those of us who have been with "the project" for a while, we have witnessed and are witnessing what I describe to people as the condensation of a language's evolution into an approximate decade of time, what otherwise naturally has taken several thousands of years. That "we" have been able to accomplish together what we have today thus far, is incredible. And "our" project continues. I have had some small but important changes made to the Interslavic Website: 1. If you CLICK on the "About" word under the "Interslavic Lexicon" name, you will see a short summary of Interslavic in English. At the bottom, text has been added in both English and Interslavic inviting the reader to email any questions or comments s/he may have to: "admin@interslavic.com". 2. I have had additional references to "www.novoslovienskij.com" inserted - so that, for example, it now appears at the bottom of "resulting" pages, such as here This brings up a question that has, like "Interslavic", been evolving over the last few months - especially after Vojta added the Interslavic Lexicon as a primary link and source to the Izviestija.info main page: What monikers should we use? Originally along the evolutionary path of "Slovioski", I changed its name at my kolegi's suggestions to "Interslavic"/"Medžuslovjanski" - concurrently with dropping the Slovio dictionary and starting a wholly new lexicon of words. This effort quickly evolved to dropping the concept of IS/MS as just another separate Auxlang and merging with Slovianski - in bits and pieces - to where eventually the only remaining element of a "distinct" Auxlang is supplemental vocabulary of words not contained in the Slovianski dictionary and the use of word "Levels". What I had also envisioned was that Slovianski would formally change its name to Interslavic / Medžuslovjanski. Indeed, if you CLICK on www.medžuslovjanski.com, you will be taken to the Slovianski website. Comes then Novoslovienskij. Initially, I did not think Novoslovienskij would "prosper" as it has. Why? Because I could not envision the success of an Auxlang that uses archaic OCS words (and grammar) as a significant part of its base. Indeed, I was very frustrated when Vojta published his first "dictionary" - and I could not recognize perhaps 70% of its word-forms. But, life is a compromise; and "success" is something that cannot be thwarted - and Novoslovienskij had achieved significant favour in the community. And so I chose to add Novoslovienskij words to the Interslavic Lexicon - albeit they are spelled in the Slovianski fashion. This "project" is only at its natal point - primarily because it takes a lot of time to review and post; but also because I could see that "our Auxlang(s)" was/were changing, evolving again. So back to "monikers": If we are to collectively refer to Slovianski/Slovjanski & Novoslovienskij as "Interslavic", should Medžuslovjanski / Mežduslovjanski encompass these also? I had asked my firm's IT man to reserve various "interslavic" domain names early on - including www.Slovjanski.com, www.Novoslovienskij.com, as well as several other variations of "pan-slavic" appellations (this was accelerated when Hučko went on his tirade of alias-name kidnappings to confuse the public). I had tried to have www.slovianski.com registered, but found that it had already been reserved - and not by Jan vS (as it turned out, one of my kolegi had reserved that name - and he has since handed control of it over). I would like to urge Vojta and Jan to consider using these more simple monikers, rather than the more cumbersome and lengthy URL names they currently utilise. Although "Slovianski" is used and recognised in the public domain, I would still suggest that it be converted to its more appropriate orthography - "Slovjanski" - and www.Slovjanski.com used as its primary domain name. Same for Novoslovienskij - www.Novoslovienskij.com. But then we come again to "Medžuslovjanski - Mežduslovjanski". Thoughts? Steeven (Radzikowski) Edited by steeven, Sep 14 2011, 04:43 PM.
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 14 2011, 07:23 PM Post #8 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Dear Vojta, I can understand your feelings in these matters better than anybody else, let me assure you that! All that is just very annoying, in the same way certain insects can be very annoying, too. I basically like your text, but I'd write certain things differently. It's a good base for a common declaration about our cooperation, but if that is the case, I'd leave the whole Slovio thing out, because it is irrelevant. On the other hand, if this is meant to be a response to Hučko's actions, then I agree with Andrej: you're putting more energy in describing the differences between NS and SL than in describing the actual issue. So the question is: whom is this text directed to, and what do you want to achieve with it? If this is meant to be a response to Hučko's rants, then let me give you one piece of well-meant advice: LET IT REST! Don't let him provoke you, and don't give him any more attention than he deserves. He is not a mentally healthy person, and it's quite clear that more than anything else, he is seeking two things: attention and conflict. By issuing this kind of texts - no matter how polite you put it - you'll only give him what he wants. Plus fuel for his continuous attacks. Believe me, that's all you are going to achieve. The wisest thing you can do is to just ignore him. Especially since Slovio is dead; you know that, I know that and Hučko apparently knows it, too. Right now he seems to be working on another project, and since he started it, there hasn't been a single post to any of the Slovio-related places. Of course, it's not very nice to have all those "Novoslovianski", "Slovianski.eu" and YouTube stuff around, but let's face it: it hardly draws any visitors at all, and besides, we can't really stop him anyway. BTW, I think you are giving Slovio a bit too much credit, now that we are at it. Enthousiasm has always been low. Even surprisingly low if you consider how much money and time has been spent on prosetylising it. In hindsight, it's pretty clear that Slovio has never really been used for anything or by anybody except Hučko himself and perhaps two or three others. Slovio might indeed have been the first Slavic-based auxlang that combined a grammar with a word list, but for the rest, there's nothing original or new about it. If anything, Hučko has made history by instigating the nastiest flamewar in the entire history of auxlanging. If you really want to issue this memorandum, then of course I'm willing to help you, fill in some bits and pieces and make a correction here and there. Merely mentioning that Hučko has been attacking our work because he considers it plagiarism is not enough. You should at least mention what these attacks are like (spreading false info, kidnapping domain names, personal attacks and threats, plagiarising our flag, etc.) and stress that nothing of it is true. But like I said, it would be wiser to ignore it. [čćч] Edited by IJzeren Jan, Sep 14 2011, 07:26 PM.
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Vojtech | Sep 14 2011, 08:07 PM Post #9 |
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aha! Pisal jesm mnogo bystro i pomiešal Andreja i Steevena. Moja greška, izvinijte. Edited by Vojtech, Sep 14 2011, 08:27 PM.
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 14 2011, 08:18 PM Post #10 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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The problem is that right now we have two dictionaries that are almost identical: the "lexicon" (on Steeven's site) and the "dictionary" (on my site). There are a few differences, too: - the lexicon contains levels - the lexicon uses a simplified orthography, while in the dictionary the base is Naučny MS - the dictionary contains only stuff that is "canon" in Slovianski (= has been accepted by this forum) - the lexicon contains lots of stuff that has been proposed, but never discussed (and some of it would never make it through a discussion); some of the Slovianski stuff in there is obsolete - the lexicon also contains stuff from NS (although I don't know how much of it) In my view, it's better to have one good dictionary than two reasonable ones. The level system of the lexicon is an excellent start, but like I've said before, it should modified/expanded. I've also noticed that a lot of words are miscategorised level-wise. Besides, I'd like to have a discussion about the fact that in many instances two "incarnations" of the same word are treated as synonyms. Secondly, If I've understood it correctly, the NS word list is in the middle of a clean-up. I think we should start adding NS vocabulary only after Vojta has said it is ready. Thirdly, I think it's not fair towards users of NS, Slovianski Plus to stick to an orthography that is basically a simplified form of Slovianski orthography. I'm not saying we need to switch to NMS, but at least the points where our projects differ should be accounted for, so that any person who f.ex. wishes to use ě (ie) instead of e will be served. So I think in time we can abolish the Slovianski dictionary, but before that the Lexicon will need a major clean-up.
Yes. But we do have a problem here, so here are a few random things to consider:
Sure. There used to be slovianski.info and slovianski.net, but they were not prolonged, so I'm fine with that. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Vojtech | Sep 14 2011, 08:24 PM Post #11 |
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Hi Jan! I am very angry. Renaming Slovio by name novoslovianski is a figment of a madman, that just makes all into the chaos and confusion. We let him live on their own, but this really bothers me. Anyway. You are right. I'll send it by e-mail memorandum. Please look at it, improve it and maybe it can be useful for all of us when we will be asked by people like Lena and Otto. Maybe in the form of IZVIESTIJA article or something like that. regards V. |
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| Vojtech | Sep 14 2011, 08:38 PM Post #12 |
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Hello!
Yes, this is also my way of thinking. Interslavic = Medžuslovienskij = Medžuslovjanski is a kind of reserved general naming of all our collaborative activities, which consist of JvS dialect of Slovianski, Gabriel dialect of Slovianski Plus, Novoslovienski, Slovioski, Slovianto etc. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 14 2011, 09:32 PM Post #13 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Let's face it: it IS the work of a madman. This whole Novoslovianski site is just perverse, just like all the stuff he writes about Steeven and me, his plagiarism of our flag (a crazy mix of Slovianski and Slovio) and his antisemitic parody of the Slovioski flag (with a palmtree and stars of David instead of the lipa tree and the stars, I still have it somewhere). All this is sick, really sick. But after dealing with these things for five years, I've come to understand a few things: - he is completely obsessed - there's no point in trying to have a normal conversation with this guy - the more you react, the more you fuel him So the best thing you can do is console yourself with the fact that nobody reads this stuff anyway. I may have happened that people who were looking for Slovianski or Novoslovienskij actually found Slovio. Well, so be it. I doesn't seem to have lured even a single person into learning it, though. No matter how it calls itself, only very few people actually like it. And like I mentioned, it seems like Hucko himself has lost interest somewhat as well. Zvestija.com hasn't been updated for over a year, and there hasn't been any activity on the Slovio forum since the beginning of April. So let him play with Rusanto if that's what he likes, it's better than having him on our necks all the time. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 14 2011, 09:57 PM Post #14 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Actually, Slovianski Plus is something I came up with (and use). Gabriel writes in full NMS. There is no JvS dialect of Slovianski. I initiated Slovianski-N five years ago, and this Slovianski-N is now Slovianski, but I don't see it as something I created. It is true that I maintain the Slovianski site and that I have written most of the text, but if it can be seen as something created at all, it's the creation of a group of people. When Slovianski had some 4,000 words (more or less in the same period when we started thinking about merging Slovianski and Slovioski), I made a very rough inventarisation, and came to the conclusion that about 1/4 had been contributed by Igor, 1/4 by Gabriel, 1/4 by Andrej and 1/4 by myself. Later, lots of words were also contributed by others, and I have also added some words from several older projects. So you see, once we also add part of NS vocabulary, it really becomes a "family creation"! |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Sep 14 2011, 10:19 PM Post #15 |
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1. Levels - yes there are. Most comments I receive (or have read in Facebook) state they "like" the levels. Basically, only three of them are really utilized: LEVEL 1 - Primary Words: common to most all of the natural Slavic languages or recognised by their speakers when not common to all LEVEL 2 - Secondary Words: words which are NOT common to all natural Slavic languages; perhaps only one or two or three. LEVEL 5 - Foreign Based Words: let's say within the last 200 years (np: "book" - "kniga" does not fall under this LEVEL, even though (Andrej has advised me) this word-form apparently derives from one of the CHINESE dialects some one thousand or more years ago. I do NOT think "levels" should be used to distinguish between Slovjanski, Slovjanto, Naučny Medžuslovjanski, Novoslovienskij. Rather, these differences could probably be displayed using radio-buttons similar to what you (Jan vS) have crafted under your "Introduction" section of "NAUČNY MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI" here 2. Lexicon uses simplified orthography: Yes it does, because that is what 99% of the readers/writers will use. IMHO NS will be used only by those who have an intense linguistic interest. And, as I noted in the above paragraph, this interest could be satisfied with the radio-button feature. 3. dictionary contains only sanctified Slovianski words: Cannon/sanctified words could perhaps best be displayed using the LEVEL system. However, the IS/MS Lexicon purposely includes words which have appeared in the Izviestija articles as well as in this forum, but which do not appear in the Slovianski or Novoslovienskij dictionaries - so that readers can at least have a relatively up to date source to understand better what they are reading. A recent example of this is your (Jan vS) use of the word "odbyvati se" (within the last 2 days here in this forum ----see here). One of my HR European friends asked me what this word means, because he could not find it in either your Slovianski "canon" dictionary or the IS/MS Lexicon. I recognized it as possibly having the same meaning as its Polish form. I did a brief research of existing MS word-forms with the root "-byvati" and quickly added it to the IS Lexicon as meaning "to take place". Voila! Instant availability for those who are doing casual reading. Nothing is written in stone. If a word-form does not work, it can always be deleted or changed. 4. Lexicon has "proposed stuff": Yes it does. For the reasons noted immediately above. 4. Lexicon has "obsolete stuff": Yes it does. It would be helpful if you would forward your database to me, when you change it, so that the IS Lexicon could be updated asap. That is also one of the reasons I spent many hours preparing an excel tabela of the (then) current IS Lexicon - in both ENGLISH - IS and IS to ENGLISH formats - so that you, and Vojta and Jan Vit and Andrej and everyone and anyone else could go through it and see what is obsolete, incorrect, etc. etc. Alas, I have not heard back from anyone. ...but we are all busy. I recognise that.5. Lexicon also contains "NS stuff": Yes it does. 6. Lexicon's level-wise miscategorisations 7. Lexicon's synonym incarnation discrepencies "yes" to both of these. That is again one of the reasons I broadcasted the EXCEL TABELA to you and all other interested parties. COMMON LEXICON: I think this is an "on point" goal. It might work best if we use your ACCESS database as the primary source - in NS form - from which all other flavourisations could be derived. Unfortunately, I am not at all familiar with the nuances of NS - my "linguistiocity" is simply not that strong. (remember, my arrival to this whole AUXLANG world was originally for practical purposes only - (1) to facilitate email communication among my law firm kolegi; and (2) to use as a basis for a Slavic legal lingua franca. So how can we work collectively to achieve common goals? ...hopefully without aspersions, castigations and undiplomatic nuances.... Thank you for taking the time to read this......! Edited by steeven, Sep 14 2011, 10:31 PM.
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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???



...but we are all busy. I recognise that.
2:17 PM Jul 11