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Representation of names in Slovianski; Was: Slovianska Wiki
Topic Started: Sep 6 2011, 02:08 PM (3,317 Views)
Moraczewski
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Funny fact: if you google льубек, you will find the same.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Kozica
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Moraczewski
Nov 24 2011, 06:30 AM
Funny fact: if you google льубек, you will find the same.
google
 
Your search - льубек - did not match any documents.

?

IOPQU
 
but if you google Любек you'll find information about it IN RUSSIAN which is why I support this kind of spelling

Well, better write EVERYTHING in russian (but not necessary in capital letters), you will no need to looking and learning anything else.
Edited by Kozica, Nov 24 2011, 11:09 AM.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Me neither. And googling for Ľubek, all I get is surnames.

That's why I believe we can't have any real RULES for this. If we transliterate into/from Cyrillic, it's easy: we use pronounciation. But when it comes to representing characters within the same alphabet, things aren't that simple. The writer should decide for himself what he wants to convey most: pronunciation, googlability, etymology... All we can really do here is tell him his options.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Nov 24 2011, 08:07 PM
Me neither. And googling for Ľubek, all I get is surnames.

That's why I believe we can't have any real RULES for this. If we transliterate into/from Cyrillic, it's easy: we use pronounciation. But when it comes to representing characters within the same alphabet, things aren't that simple. The writer should decide for himself what he wants to convey most: pronunciation, googlability, etymology... All we can really do here is tell him his options.

[čćч]
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Либек

you can click Ћирилица or Latinica and the name of the city will be transliterated automatically from Либек to Libek
you can't do that with Lübeck
and there's a tag in wikipedia like this: {{јез-нем|Lübeck}} that tells the transliterator not to translate that part so that the cyrillic version says нем. Lübeck and the Latin version says nem. Lübeck

imagine Slovianski gets as popular as Esperanto, which has its own wikipedia and its own entry for the city:
http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubeko

if we create our own wikipedia I'd like it to transliterate names automatically and show the article names correctly
if someone wants to write things in the original orthography I don't care, lots of things are written in Latin even in Russian like "Формат файлов на CD-ROM отличается от формата записи аудио-компакт-дисков..."
but the name of the article is Компакт-диск and not CD
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Dynozaur

I agree with iopq. I think that "googling for [something] gives no results" isn't a big problem for us. Why do we assume that people are idiots who can't understand some simple orthographic transformation? Also, the local name can always be given in brackets with more troublesome names.
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iopq
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well, the "hack" of using the same orthography only works with Latin, we have to give the original spelling when we write Chinese/Arabic/Korean names in brackets too

using the logic in this thread I guess we have to keep those things in the original orthographies too so you can google them
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Well, here's something else to consider:

Slovianski doesn't have ONE orthography, it uses a prototype orthography that can also be used for writing national languages, and the opposite is also true: this orthography can also be converted back into the various national orthographies through simple algorithms. Thus, slovjanskí can variously become словянский, словјански, слов'янський, słowiański etc. Naučny Medžuslovjanski orthography is meant to make this possible to a pretty high degree, to the point where mlėko can generate both mleko, mlijeko and молоко.

Now, if you transcribe a Polish text into NMS, you'll get something like: Litvo, ojčizno moja, ty jesteś jak zdrovje, kto tę stratil, ten tyľko sę dově.. That's normal Polish, only written differently. You can of course do the same thing with names of people or places, thus Warszawa, Kraków, Wrocław, Poznań, Rzeszów become Varšava, Krakov, Vroclav, Poznaň, Řešov. What matters here is this: if you transpose the whole resulting text, names included, back into Polish orthography, you'll automatically get the original names back.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Nov 24 2011, 08:07 PM
... I believe we can't have any real RULES for this.
If we transliterate into/from Cyrillic, it's easy: we use pronunciation.
But when it comes to representing characters within the same alphabet, things aren't that simple. The writer should decide for himself what he wants to convey most: pronunciation, googlability, etymology...
All we can really do here is tell him his options.
My two kopecks' worth of wisdom:

In part, I agree with Jan vS on this. ...this works as long as we are communicating personally between each other.
However, just like newspapers, "real" (branded) websites, television news programs, etc., most of these "venues" adopt an official orthography, so that there is no confusion.
People dislike confusion.
People like order.

An interesting example of this is the capital of mainland China: Beijing
In the lingua franca of the world (English), Beijing was called "Peking" for centuries.
The name of the City itself has never changed INSIDE CHINA. To Chinese speakers, its name has always been 北京 - which literally means "Northern Capital".
When the People's Republic of China adopted the latinica form of writing in 1949, "Peking" became "Beijing".
But, not until the 1980's were English-speaking organisations (airports, itineraries, the United Nations, NATO) forced to change the name from "Peking" to "Beijing".
Interestingly, our Slavic countries were not forced by China to make this change.
So, Beijing is "Пекин" in Russian, " "Peking" in Czech and Serbo-Croatian, " "Pekin" in Polish.
But, then, each of these Slavic language speakers/writers communicate only within its own language boundaries - so there is no need to have a common word-form for use by all the Slavic languages.

But INTERSLAVIC is intended to be the "Slavic lingua franca", and thus, IMHO, I believe MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI should have an official word-form for certain geographical items in "official writings".

"Beijing" - if pronounced in American English - would be pronounced (руска kirlica) "БИЙ-джинг" (accent on first syllable). Nonetheless, newscasters will always pronounce this word in аn american-speech-modified Mandarin Chinese form: "бэй-ЧИНГ" (accent on second syllable)
(Mandarin Chinese pronunciation would be similar to: "бэй-ЦЖИН" (accent on second syllable) )

For MS, I suggest we use the official Chinese orthography - "BEIJING".
How we handle Warsaw, Harkov/Kharkov/Kharkiv/Harkov/Harjko, etc., I would suggest that we either Latinize or Cyrillify the native word-form - or leave it in its native format.
Thus:
Harkov remains as "Харків" or Harkiv
Warsaw remains as "Warszawa" or becomes "Varšava" or "Варшава"
Lubeck stays as "Lubeck" or becomes "Lubek" or "Лубек"
Łódź becomes "Lodz" or "Лодз"

(....even if when you google the city's name in whatever language you choose, its name references come up in Russian, Basque or Klingon; the name still observers its NATIVE LANGUAGE format) - this goes for "Paris" too - "...et pas comme on le dit en français, mais á propros de son orthographe; donc, "ПАРИС" et pas "ПАРИЙ"

Again, this is for our "official" purposes only.
In your personal communications, if you wish to spell/represent "Харків" as "Харьков" "Khar'kov" "Harjkov" "Харитон" or Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, please do so; presumably the name for the city/town (grad/malgrad :o ;) you wish to reference will be understood by the person to whom you are writing your communication! :)



Edited by steeven, Nov 27 2011, 01:45 AM.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
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Quote:
 
The name of the City itself has never changed INSIDE CHINA. To Chinese speakers, its name has always been 北京 - which literally means "Northern Capital".


Actually the royal pronunciation was Peking, while the peasants started saying Pejing around that time already
in American English Beijing is pronounced bay-jing not bay-ching

Quote:
 
For MS, I suggest we use the official Chinese orthography - "BEIJING".

we will also have to write things like weiqi, Shenzhen
and what do we do with cyrillic? Система Палладия only works for Russian phonetics where чж is written that way so that it's pronounced "hard"
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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iopq
Nov 27 2011, 01:58 AM
Actually the royal pronunciation was Peking, while the peasants started saying Pejing around that time already
in American English Beijing is pronounced bay-jing not bay-ching
Igor...that is how it should best be pronounced. But the American accents, especially in the east, south and midwest pronounce it "ching" ... as in "cha ching" :D

(everyone knows "cha ching" from the American television commercials - and, so, as water finds the easiest way to flow downhill, "ching" sounds close enuf for most American speakers to the "jing" of "Beijing" ...... ugh.
Listen to them closely - it's like so many uneducated Americans always say "axe" instead of "ask" or "you was" instead of "you were")

(of course... in the dumbing down of America and English, 200 years from now the official formal words & grammar will be:

"I axe you a question": Was you home yesserday?"

Edited by steeven, Nov 27 2011, 02:28 AM.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Cyrillic is an entirely different can of worms. Here were can just follow pronunciation - with Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Bulgarian, Macedonian and Serbian as our examples.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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iopq
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steeven
Nov 27 2011, 02:02 AM
iopq
Nov 27 2011, 01:58 AM
Actually the royal pronunciation was Peking, while the peasants started saying Pejing around that time already
in American English Beijing is pronounced bay-jing not bay-ching
Igor...that is how it should best be pronounced. But the American accents, especially in the east, south and midwest pronounce it "ching" ... as in "cha ching" :D

(everyone knows "cha ching" from the American television commercials - and, so, as water finds the easiest way to flow downhill, "ching" sounds close enuf for most American speakers to the "jing" of "Beijing" ...... ugh.
Listen to them closely - it's like so many uneducated Americans always say "axe" instead of "ask" or "you was" instead of "you were")

(of course... in the dumbing down of America and English, 200 years from now the official formal words & grammar will be:

"I axe you a question": Was you home yesserday?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBT5FpoAn4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boiyGYEiLLg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9qPhKlXf3Q
in these three it's bejžing as if Beijing is a French word
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Nov 27 2011, 02:05 AM
Cyrillic is an entirely different can of worms. Here were can just follow pronunciation - with Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Bulgarian, Macedonian and Serbian as our examples.
so sūnzi = Сунь-цзы?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Kozica
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heh, this is problem with phonetic system :) you will never suit everybody with pronunciation one of you introduce. For example we spoke before about "sound" or "saund" etc.

In this stage it is obvious for me that we need two different orthography. It is lying yourself, when you think that you can simply swap between latin and cyrillic like fonts in ms word.

different script, different spirit, different attitude
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steeven
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Kozica,
In principle I agree with you. But I think we need to have some "official" standard - at least for key cities and certain geographical features.
I stated earlier that:
People dislike confusion.
People like order.

I think that is one of the reasons many people are attracted to Esperanto. But our Interslavic effort is not really intended to be a "constructed" language like Esperanto. I have been involved in "this" now for 5 years over which time my philosophy(ies) has(have) changed and continue to change.

The differences between Slovianski and Novoslovienskij are - IMHO - beneficial to the evolution of Interslavic. "Conflict" always yields change; hopefully for the better.
Fortunately I think we have a good group of people involved in this endeavour.

Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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