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Representation of names in Slovianski; Was: Slovianska Wiki
Topic Started: Sep 6 2011, 02:08 PM (3,318 Views)
Kozica
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Just stick local rules.
As far as I know cyrillic systems always base on phonetic.
Polish always on etymology.
Szczebrzeszyn in slovianski is Szczebreszin (if you use sz/cz/zs system ofcourse)
If you are russian and writing in slovianski to ukrainian or bulgarian, do not be bothered about polish odds.
But if you want write something to (for example) me, please stick to bandzio's and jan 's examples.
I will do the same for you, so I can change polish names to pure phonetic for you.

And everybody will be happy.
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iopq
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bandziol20
Nov 19 2011, 08:02 PM
iopq
Nov 19 2011, 06:53 PM
they have no idea about the rz/sz/cz convention, it's a meaningless stream of letters to anyone but people who have studied Polish or use the Polish Slovianski ASCIIzation

for all they know it's pronounced рз/сз/цз
looks like Chinese Сунь-Цзы which IS pronounced цз (kinda)
True, but what's about it ? Every language has got its convention. I wonder what do you think about English convention for writing "Czech". That's so meaningless stream of letters... ;)
of course, that's why I don't want an orthography that borrows mindlessly without adapting the spelling of the word to its own conventions
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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tellur
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OMG, I was writing a long reply which took me over an hour and they cut off the power!!! I'm so pissed off, man!
However, I'll try to write as much as I remember:
We got basically three types of names which should be treated differently. I apologize in advance for writing only geography related terms as I am recalling more of it than names of people
a)Names which got Slavic roots or are HEAVILY slavicized (they sound like they are of Slavic origin)
These are very common amongst Slavic countries (you didn't know this, did you?;o). Fully declined. Should be treated etymologically according to ortography system which is used (either NS nj, dj, tj, lj, rj or Slovianski ň, ď, ř, ľ, ř)
Bělgrad, Velika Morava, Praga, Gradec Kraľovej*, Řešov, Harkov, Moskva, Dněpropetrovsk, Ural, Kolobrěg (or -břeg?), Sava, Ľubľana, Varšava, Praga, Arhandělsk, Murmansk, Černobyľ, Podgorica, Ščetin, Gdynia, Gdaňsk, Loď**, Bělyjstok, Krivi rog, Novi Sad, Zagreb...
*Kraľovej should be used here as it gives more grammatical information because králové in Hradec Králové is a genitive form of králová-queen
**Ok, maybe I went too far but any Slav but Pole won't pronounce Łódź properly.

b)Names of foreign origin which are slavicized to some extent and therefore can be declined.
Most of more known terms amongst usual people. We should treat them phonetically and stay as close to original language/ortography as possible. Most of the European which got settled in Slavic area due to their popularity/faimiliarity/whatever.
Pariž, London, Štrasburg, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Madrid, Rim, Terst, Rotterdam, Klaipėda, Kaunas, Vilnius, Riga, Nemunas, Debysa...

c)Names which can't be declined in any way.
We should write them as they are written in original language. If this language uses another script but Latin then I propose using a phonetical transcription which catches the original sound pretty good. 99 % of all geographical terms on all 6 continents.
Mosjřen, Ţjórsá, Eyjafjallajökull, Vännern, Vätern (and basically every Scandinavian related term lol), Honšu, Šikoku, Hokkaido, Pchjongjang, Beijing, Soul, Busan, Mekka, Afganistan*, Tadžikistan*, Chicago*, New York*, San Andreas, Córdoba*, Ciudad de México, Săo Paulo, Džakarta*, Thessaloniki, Athina, Torino...
*can belong into second group

What do you think?
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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iopq
Administrator
why Vilnius but Pariž
are you Slavicizing or not?

>Pchjongjang
no
>Beijing
no
Slovianski has to have transliteration rules for every language, not borrow from Polish or English (weird that you didn't use the English one for Korean!)
more like Pjongjang, Bejdžing
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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1) Why Řešov but Harkov and not Hařkov?
Arhandělsk is by no means more etymological than Arhangelsk
Bělyjstok why not Běly Stok or at least Bělystok?

2) What about Liepaja and Tallinn-Tallin-Talin?

3) Mosjřen, Ţjórsá... show me the exit please
This doesnt really make any sense to write using all the diacritics and non standard letters. Otherwise we'll end up with Đông Triều
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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Kozica
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that is why, tellur's points a) and b) will no work.
we should use rule "my land/citizen, my name"
if something is in poland, we use polish spelling. Without strictly polish characters like ł,ą,ę, of course, and with "v" instead "w", because in this case "ł", "ć", "ź" and "w" develop the same problem. In slovianski alphabetic order "Lod" is in "L" section so "Varszava" must be in "V".
"Bialystok" or if we lost "y" "Bialistok" never "Bialy Stok" because in modern polish we do not recognise it as a "white slope" anymore and this meaning, base only on literately translation make no sense anymore. But "Novy Sacz" never "Novysacz". Why? because it is our town and it is our right to named it as we want.
So if something/somebody is Czech, we will folow czech rules, if russian, russian rules etc etc.

If English, english rules, but in case of english we need to use "w" instead of polish it is not doublet of "v" so represent different voice. Some polish puritan can say now that "ą" represents different voice than "a", well yes. But english is first language of the word and polish is spoken only by 40-50 millions, so in term of percent's - not exist. Sometimes rule of equality must face rule of reason.
same situation is with english "q"

if german, german spelling, with plain latin script. again, if sound is "v" change letter "w" to "v".

technically all language, with original, official or historic latin scripts should be treated like in examples above. with special concerns about "w", "q"

Languages without their own representation in Latin (or maybe cyrillic) should be treated phonetic - but slovianski's phonetic, not polish or russian :P

suggestions?
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tellur
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Ok, maybe I went to far with some names like Bělgrad...But I was inspired by my own mother tongue, Czech, when we treat it like this (can not describe in my own words):Bělehrad, Těšín (Cieszyn), Štětín (Szczecin), Záhřeb, Osvětim, Dněpropetrovsk, Hnězdno (Gniezno)...But some names mainly of Polish origin stay the same (Zielona Góra, Łódź, Dębica, Częstochowa-Sometimes we can see Čenstochova)
Btw, does outside Russian speaking area exist Харькив or w/e like this? Cause I've seen Харьков only in Russian. Харкив exist in Ukrainian. Even in puristical Czech, we don't have Chařkov but Charkov only.
Mosjřen, Ţjórsá, Đông Triều but at least basic diacritics of that language should be preserved. So German Lübeck stays Lübeck not Lubeck or w/e.
But it was/is just mainly an idea. I can see pretty clearly that Kozica made a far better job at this than me.

I think that some rules about transcribing should be made for every Slav language in MS.
Like for Polish:
Polish szcz, cz, sz, rz, ż clusters morph into št/šč, č, š, ř, ž in MS
Polish ci, dzi clusters morph into ti, di and so on.
or Czech:
Czech h morphs into g in MS
Czech á, é, í, ú, ý morph into a, e, i, u, y in MS
Maybe another stupid idea but what do you think anyways? With these sets of rules, it should be pretty easy in any Slavic language. I am very interested to see what solution will this debate bring.
Edited by tellur, Nov 23 2011, 01:23 PM.
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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Kozica
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Quote:
 
Mosjřen, Ţjórsá, Đông Triều but at least basic diacritics of that language should be preserved. So German Lübeck stays Lübeck not Lubeck or w/e.

well, rune "Ţ" was still present in middle english, when they used instead of modern "th" so we can be pretty sure about this voice. it should be "Thjorsa" never "Tjorsa" because it is not rune teiwaz (like modern "t")

as far as i remember, germans have rule for situation when umlauts/scharfe s are unavailable. they use doublets instead. so "strasse" instead of "Straße", "Luubeck" instead "Lübeck"
Quote:
 
Polish szcz, cz, sz, rz, ż clusters morph into št/šč, č, š, ř, ž in MS

ofcourse, remember just that polish's keyboard users are using sz,cz,ż,ń anyway for slovianski's texts. :)
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iopq
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Харьков is the city of Харько - diminuative of Харитон
I totally disagree with "basic" diacritics being preserved, what is "basic"? I can only see гачок as the sole diacritic we allow

better Ľubek or Libek than Lübeck
how do you read that anyway? nobody is going to say [ly:bɛk] unless they know German
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Kozica
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Quote:
 
how do you read that anyway?

well probably if you take in account slavonic origins, "Ljubice" :p
question how you will read is not important in slovianski.
question is how do you understand that in text.
I'm against "basic diacritics" but you must admit even people who do not know german, know umlauts :p
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iopq
Administrator
the members of the band Motörhead know umlauts, but they think it's just cool to add dots over letters
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Kozica
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haha, one of my favourites bands... <love>

When I wrote "knows umlauts" I didn't mean "know they purpose" but "knows that they are german"
"Lübeck jest krasnym gradom" - I already know we are talking here about german city
"Lubeck jest krasnym gradom" - I will google "Lubeck"
Edited by Kozica, Nov 23 2011, 07:43 PM.
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Moraczewski
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Go and try googling Lubeck, I'm pretty sure you'll find nothing but the German town
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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Kozica
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ofcourse, that is why I support this type of spelling in first place :P
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iopq
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Kozica
Nov 23 2011, 10:46 PM
ofcourse, that is why I support this type of spelling in first place :P
but if you google Любек you'll find information about it IN RUSSIAN which is why I support this kind of spelling
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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