Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti.
Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности.
Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit.

Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno.

Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community!
Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti:
Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности:
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Representation of names in Slovianski; Was: Slovianska Wiki
Topic Started: Sep 6 2011, 02:08 PM (3,319 Views)
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Well, be glad that your name is not Mario, then! :D

Аbout those Russian double vowels... That would make my name Ван Стеенберген, right? Are there other Cyrillic orthographies that do the same? AFAIK in South Slavic it's impossible.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

I remember we had already this discussion about your surname and the result was that no orthography is 100% correct. Стеенберген, according to rules, is read as stejenbergen - which is incorrect. However, this is how it is traditionally transliterated.

ВАН СТЕЕНБЕРГЕН (VAN STEENBERGHEN) ФЕРНАНД - (р. 1904) - бельг. философ-неотомист, специалист по истории средневековой философии. Преподавал в католическом ун-те в Лувене, академик Бельгийской королевской академии.


I remember nice examples of how inconsistent Russian transliteration is. Two villages in Karelia have the following official names: Няятяоя and Ояярви, while their Finnish equivalents show different origin of "яя" sequence: Näätäoja and Ojajarvi.
Edited by Moraczewski, Nov 14 2011, 01:59 PM.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Indeed. And from that point of view, яя is a hell of a lot worse than аа. I guess ее fall in the first category. Actually, it's odd that Cyrillic doesn't use diacritics, even though with the help of Bashkir, Komi, Udmurt etc. the Cyrillic character set would be able to cover at least the basics.

My own preference would rather be Стейнберген. Or perhaps Стенберген. But both might as well have been transliterations of "Steinbergen" and "Stenbergen", both of which are at least theoretically possible as Dutch surnames.

(But under no circumstances write Ште-----, because unlike German, Dutch doesn't do that).

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

IJzeren Jan
Nov 14 2011, 03:43 PM
Actually, it's odd that Cyrillic doesn't use diacritics, even though with the help of Bashkir, Komi, Udmurt etc. the Cyrillic character set would be able to cover at least the basics.

I don't think so. Imagine an average Russian trying to read Әмәт or the above mentioned Нääтäоя. These names are fairly seldom used (limited to local usage) and there's no reason to teach Russians all non-standard cyrillic letters for sole purpose of transcribing non-Russian names. Finally, English doesn't do that as well even if it could with help of many other european languages.


Quote:
 
(But under no circumstances write Ште-----, because unlike German, Dutch doesn't do that).

Indeed. But the truth is that many Russians, especially older generations, are familiar with German and not Dutch, so seeing a surname that sounds somewhere near German, they automatically adopt it to German. Just explaining why those mistakes are quite common.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gabriel Svoboda

Dynozaur
 
Every language has exonyms. Using only unchanged local names (especially for closely-related languages) seems unnatural to me.


Indeed, Dnepropetrovsk is an exonym, since it is a large city. But unchanged local names might be inevitable for lesser known places and for modern people. So Prague will be Praga (not Prĺga, even though that's the etymology), since virtually all languages have it that way. But Hradec Králové is not that widely known, ergo it won't be Grĺdčc Krĺľovňj, but simply Hradec Kralove, cf. south Slavic Храдец Кралове. Just if you don't want to have it undeclinable, use Hradčc Kralovňj.

IJzeren Jan
 
I think that for example Leningrĺd - Bělgrĺd - Užgrĺd - Grĺdisk would go way too far. But then, if we write Dněpropetrovsk, then why not Pěsečno or Běla Podlěska?


Exactly, that's why I think we should not use Naučni characters in proper names. Let's vote on sounds and characters, not on etymology, and use Dnepr, Dnepropetrovsk, Leningrad, Belgrad, Užgorod, Pjasečno (or simply Piaseczno in Latinica). Naučni characters should only be allowed to show declension: Bjalá Podľaská (or simply Biała Podlaska in Latinica).

IJzeren Jan
 
But since rz always matches ř, it would make sense to write Řešov and not Žešov (indeed, that's what Russian, Bulgarian and Serbian do, but compare Ukr. Ряшів, Cz. Řešov, Sk. Rešov).


Ukrainian, Czech and Slovak show it is an exonym, so Řešov. But in most other cases, Ukrainian writes f. ex. Забже for Zabrze; so do other Cyrillic languages. So if you don't want to transliterate, use rz, if you want to transliterate, use ž. Only if you want to translate, use ř.

IJzeren Jan
 
Another problematic case is č, as in Ciechanów. How to handle that: Těhanov? Cěhanov? Cjehanov?


In this case east Slavic uses ц, Serbian ћ, Bulgarian ч. So Cehanov.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
Russian has Градец Кралове because H is Г in transliteration of foreign names
Victor Hugo is Виктор Гюго

note that Russian allows Czech h as the pronunciation of г

also, you're losing precision because you already wrote Cehanov for ch, so why would you use the same character to translate two different sounds?
Edited by iopq, Nov 18 2011, 03:05 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dynozaur

I think that we should always transcribe the "h" sound as "g/г" in Slovianski (at least in Cyrillic). Because otherwise, it'd be read unvoiced, which is totally incorrect (Polish people do it all the time and it's really annoying me). I think that even pronouncing it as occlusive [g] is far better than [x].

It's one of those most fundamental (and easy-to-notice) rules that everybody should be able to remember. I think that transliterating Hradec as "Храдец" is just as stupid as transliterating Chorzów as "Цхорзов". Such fundamental phonetic and graphemic counterparts between languages should just be remembered, rather than blindly transcribing graphemes.
Edited by Dynozaur, Nov 18 2011, 07:48 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
That's the problem: Ukrainian also has Градець, and Ukrainian Г happens to be the same thing as Czech H. Same with Belarussian Градэц. Only South Slavic uses Храдец. That makes 2 votes for Г and 1,25 for Х (not that voting should matter much in these cases, though). But all Cyrillic-writing languages have Праг(а), and Праха isn't used anywhere.

And that's the whole problem: it can't help it, but any solution I've seen proposed (including my own) still feel wrong.

Poľski prezident Bronislaw Komorowski somehow looks worse to me than Poľski prezident Bronislav Komorovski. Just like "Sustrěča dvu prezidentov odbude se v Varšavě" looks better than Warszawie, Varszavě etc. But instead of Leh Valesa or something, I'd rather write Wałęsa. And what to do with the surname Wróbel? Wrobel, Vrobel, Vrubeľ, or simply Wróbel?

Sure, we can say that Varšava, Praga, Belgrad and Ľubľana, Dněpropetrovsk are big cities, so that they are entitled to have their own names in Slovianski. But Rzeszów isn't a small town either. So there to draw the line?

The more I think of all this, the more I believe we really can't have rules for this. What's the best solution depends very much on questions like:
- what do you want to convey more: pronunciation (so that people know how to pronounce it) or orthography (so that people can look ik up in Wikipedia easily)?
- How much weight to you put to automatic transliteration?
- What language are you dealing with?
- Who's the writer?
- What kind of orthography are you using?

One of the things Poles must learn when writing Slovianski is that ó > o, w > v, ť > tě/ťe, rz > ř, ch > h, etc. Which makes it logical that a Pole would also write Řešov and Těhanov/Ťehanov, and not some Žešov or Cehanov. Telling him to follow a completely different set of rules when it comes to names, is only making things difficult for him.

NMS has the characters ć/đ, so a person who's using NMS and who really cares about pronunciation can very well write Ćehanov and Grođisk (cf. Serbian Ћеханов and Грођиск].

One other thing that matters is how the writer looks at Interslavic. If he sees the Slavic languages as dialects of one Pan-Slavic language, then it's also logical that Polish Nowak and Czech Novák are written the same way.

So all in all, I can think of three models, and which one is the best depends pretty much on the situation:

  • Original orthography, unchanged (Ciechanów, Wałęsa, Kaczyński)
  • Original orthography, adapted (Cie[c]hanov], Valesa, Kaczynski)
  • Etymology-based (Těhanov, Valųsa, Kačinskí)
  • Pronunciation, majority-based (Cěhanov, Valensa, Kačinski)
  • Pronunciation, local (Ćehanuv, Valensa, Kačiňski)
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bandziol20
Member Avatar

I would consider slovianski'zation for old place names based on Slavic roots, but only if it doesn't too much change the original pronounciation and makes it more familiar for Slovianski-speakers (Tehanov / T'ehanov). Of course still it should be in use original orthography (Ciechanów / Ciechanow).
For names of people I would take an original orthography (Wałęsa, Kaczyński) or without diacritics (Walesa, Kaczynski) or with the closest pronounciation to the nowadays Polish pronounciation (Valensa, Kačinski).
Edited by bandziol20, Nov 19 2011, 03:51 PM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
you can ALWAYS write the original, but that won't do for 99% of the cases
do you think a Russian will be able to read Szczebrzeszyn?

are you insane?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bandziol20
Member Avatar

A transcription in Cyrilic should be phonological, however... since Szczebrzeszyn is an old place name, it should be written in the most basic form which for me it would be Шчебрешин ( Ščebrešin since this Polish combination rz is a representation of old palatal r, the same as Czech ř)
In Latin transcription it could be original Szczebrzeszyn.
Edited by bandziol20, Nov 19 2011, 06:23 PM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
bandziol20
Nov 19 2011, 06:22 PM
In Latin transcription it could be original Szczebrzeszyn.
do you think a Russian reading this in Latin can read it? do you think a Croat reading this in Latin can read it?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bandziol20
Member Avatar

I don't know... maybe.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
bandziol20
Nov 19 2011, 06:42 PM
I don't know... maybe.
they have no idea about the rz/sz/cz convention, it's a meaningless stream of letters to anyone but people who have studied Polish or use the Polish Slovianski ASCIIzation

for all they know it's pronounced рз/сз/цз
looks like Chinese Сунь-Цзы which IS pronounced цз (kinda)
Edited by iopq, Nov 19 2011, 06:58 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bandziol20
Member Avatar

iopq
Nov 19 2011, 06:53 PM
they have no idea about the rz/sz/cz convention, it's a meaningless stream of letters to anyone but people who have studied Polish or use the Polish Slovianski ASCIIzation

for all they know it's pronounced рз/сз/цз
looks like Chinese Сунь-Цзы which IS pronounced цз (kinda)
True, but what's about it ? Every language has got its convention. I wonder what do you think about English convention for writing "Czech". That's so meaningless stream of letters... ;)
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Fonologija i pravopis · Next Topic »
Add Reply