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| Representation of names in Slovianski; Was: Slovianska Wiki | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 6 2011, 02:08 PM (3,320 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Nov 11 2011, 10:15 PM Post #16 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Cyrillic, yes. And secondly, Latinica, because the same thing also applies vice versa. In any case, I agree with Kozica. Let people decide for themselves how they want to write. Our task here is to offer the best solution, but I have to say that in this particular case every solution has its pros and cons. If we assume that any text must be machine-transliteratable on a 1:1 base, then we have no other solution than writing Margaret Tečer, Žak Širak, Džon F. Kenedi, Albert Ajnštajn, Bred Pyt, Antuan de Sent-Eksuperi, Uiliam Šekspir, Žan-Pol Sartr, Princ Čarlz, Gijom de Mašo, etc. But it's nowhere written that this is the best solution in all cases, as not every text will automatically be run through a transliteration program. My own personal preference is what practically languages in the world do: simply stick to the original orthography as close as possible, and find a solution only for characters that don't fit. Everybody with a Latin keyboard can write Polish sz cz rz ch ie etc. Since these characters also belong to the character set of Slovianski, it's not impossible to write Szczecin, Zabrze, Gniezno, etc. Since koň can also be written as koń, Poznań can also be written as Poznaň, Gdaňsk. In the case of Ł, it's enough to remove the dash, because it corresponds with Slovianski L anyway: Chelm, Pila. Same goes for Ó, which corresponds with Slovianski O. Ś and Ź exist in NMS, but not in normal Slovianski. The acute can therefore simply be removed. Of course, Ż can be substituted with Ž: Lomža. Most people with a Latin keyboard can write W, but it does not belong to the Slovianski character set. So while Wroclaw and Krakow are doable, Vroclav and Krakov might be better. Most problematic are undoubtedly the nasal vowels Ą and Ę. I don't know what would be the best solution for them. Probably just omit the ogonek. The advantage of such a "system" is at least that it is very easy to apply, without knowing anything at all about pronuciation or etymology. Of course, this would only work for text in Latin orthography. In the case of Cyrillic, it would be a different story. Same principle goes also for Ukrainian: we don't have to worry about Ukrainian characters that also exist in our own Cyrillic orthography. All we need to find a solution for are: Ґ Є І Ї Й Я Ю Щ. Most of these are simple: Г ЈЕ, ЈИ, Ј, ЈА/ЬА, ЈУ/ЬУ, ШЧ. Only І is difficult. I guess И is the easiest solution, but in cases where І is obviously JAŤ-derived, it might be better to use Е, as in Дніпропетровськ. In general, I'd always rather use the stem than the nominative. If you compare Polish Lwów (Львуф), Ukrainian Львів (Львиў) and Russian Львов, the differences are much bigger than necessary, since all three languages have the stem Львов-. Also here goes that such a solution works only in Cyrillic. Volodymyr Vynnyčenko looks better than Volodimir/Vladimir Vinničenko, but in Cyrillic Володимир Винниченко looks better than Володымыр Вынныченко. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Nov 12 2011, 12:09 AM Post #17 |
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why? if he used the Russian version of his name it would be Vladimir Vinničenko don't think it's a rare occurence, Олексій Крупник actually writes his name in English as Aleksey Krupnik even though his passport has Oleksiy Krupnyk |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Nov 12 2011, 03:57 PM Post #18 |
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Okay. But let's say in a text supposed to be run through a transliteration programme, when the Russian equivalent is unknown, и --> y (ы) is inevitable - to preserve the difference from і --> i (и). Also, people should not mix different alphabets. If you already change Czempiń to Czempiň, be consistent and use Čempiň (dopoka ty ne upotrebjasz polsku ortografiju takoże w obycznych słowach). |
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| Dynozaur | Nov 12 2011, 04:10 PM Post #19 |
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How about averting the Dnepropetrovsk/Dnipropetrovsk problem by just calling the city by its true name - Jekaterinoslav? Okay, I'm just kidding. I don't think that we should translate/calque the names, but some peculiar phonological processes (like Ukrainian ikavizm or Serbo-Croat l > o change) should be eliminated, at least in the more blatant examples (I think Dnipropetrovsk and Beograd are such examples) to create an acceptable Slovianski form. And the spellings should be Slovianski-ized, at least for major cities and towns. Every language has exonyms. Using only unchanged local names (especially for closely-related languages) seems unnatural to me. Edited by Dynozaur, Nov 12 2011, 04:11 PM.
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| Kozica | Nov 12 2011, 04:37 PM Post #20 |
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Imagine that you reading long text in slovianski, full of geographic names and foreign surnames. and imagine that all of them are spelled phonetic. If you never heard about this regions/persons before, you will be unable to find more information about them, simply because you will not know how to typed them in google. If you will not find those topics in slovianski's wiki of course... :p |
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| iopq | Nov 12 2011, 09:55 PM Post #21 |
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Ukrainian і can only come from *e, *yat, *o, and *C'i so синій would be written as siňi, Дніпропетровськ as Dneptropetrovsk there is no y in Ukrainian |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Nov 13 2011, 12:03 PM Post #22 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Kozica raises a good point: if you change the original orthography of a name in a way that goes further than removing inconvenient diacritics, it becomes hard to look it up via Google, for example. That's actually one of the complaints heard sometimes against Esperanto: if a person has never heard of the city of Toulouse, then what should he do with the name "Tuluzo" (I don't know Esperanto, but I guess it must be something like that)? That's at least one argument in favour or maintaining the original orthography. I remember having done some translation work in the past for a sports event between Opoczno and Opočno. ![]() Second question: how much weight do we put to automatic transliteration? It's clear that in the case of Cyrillic representations of word with a Latin orthography and vice versa we have to follow certain pronunciation rules, but there's no rule that forces use to use a transliteration from a transliteration when it comes to representing, say, English or Polish names in Latinica. The vast majority of the languages with a Latin orthography actually do that. AFAIK only Serbian Latinica, Latvian, Lithuanian and Vietnamese write "Tečer" or something. The reasoning in the case of Serbian is obvious, but that doesn't mean we need to follow that principle in all cases. Interslavic communication also involved communication between Poles and Croats, and there's no reason why they should make things more complicated than necessariy. If we do what most languages do, it's pretty simple: give the closest possible approximation of the original name, and if diacritics cause a problem, just ignore them. Gabriel is of course right that Czempiň looks odd, in the same way "snezsna buřa" looks odd. I think we all agree that names shouldn't be translated or calqued or something. On the other hand, Dněpr vs. Dnepr vs. Dnipro clearly does not fall in that category. The question is probably: in how far should local peculiarities influence the final result? Compare: Lu[g/h]anśk - Gdańsk - Petrozavodsk. Same goes for names: if Kaczyński hadn't been a Pole, his name would have been Качинский/Kačinskij (Russian), Качинський/Kačynśkyj (Ukrainian), Kačinský (Czech, Slovak), Качински/Kačinski (South Slavic), etc. We might postulate that at least certain elements that repeat themselves often are unified (-inskí). We might also postulate that Polish sz/cz/ż lare represented as š/č/ž if the rest of the text also uses š/č/ž. I agree with Dynozaur that certain idiosyncratic phonological processes like Ukrainian і and Serbian o should be eliminated, at least in the more blatant cases. But how far can we push that? I think that for example Leningrĺd - Bělgrĺd - Užgrĺd - Grĺdisk would go way too far. But then, if we write Dněpropetrovsk, then why not Pěsečno or Běla Podlěska? All that basically remains is an intuitive approach. We can't come up with one general rule, if anything, we need to define these things for every language individually. Taking Polish as an example again, sz cz ż always map with š č ž, and that goes also for ó > o, ł > l and ń > ň. But since rz always matches ř, it would make sense to write Řešov and not Žešov (indeed, that's what Russian, Bulgarian and Serbian do, but compare Ukr. Ряшів, Cz. Řešov, Sk. Rešov). However, I'd rather not write Saska Kupa. Another problematic case is č, as in Ciechanów. How to handle that: Těhanov? Cěhanov? Cjehanov?Sure, we can circumvent the whole problem by making a list of major cities, rivers, mountains and the like, for which we can just use the majority solution (or the etymological approach, which will usually give the same result). Taking the Dněpr as an example: Spoiler: click to toggle ... the conclusion is pretty simple: Dněpr. Because Dněpropetrovsk quite obviously carries the name of the river in it, it would make sense to apply the same principle here as well. Besides, as a city with over a million inhabitants, it makes sense to treat it as a "major city" anyway. One last thing: we also have to take today's reality into account. Anno 2011 we must accept Ukrainian as a language in its own right, and not as some kind of Maloruski. Blindly using Russian names for Ukrainian places would be a slap in the face of the Ukrainians. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Kozica | Nov 13 2011, 01:16 PM Post #23 |
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My idea: "Rodil se v Rzeszove (izgovor: Żeszuv)" or "Rodil se v Żeszove" (pol: Rzeszów)" if we will write that way it would be no problem |
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| iopq | Nov 13 2011, 04:32 PM Post #24 |
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ok, so you're fine with Rodil se v Đông Triềuje where we put the -je suffix in there because we're really not sure how to decline it to me, that looks horrible and I wouldn't know how to read that to counter your google argument, if we have Dong Triu or however it's pronounced, when you google you can get 100% materials in Slovianski, when you google Đông Triều you get Vietnamese results you wouldn't know how to read Edited by iopq, Nov 13 2011, 04:43 PM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Moraczewski | Nov 13 2011, 06:59 PM Post #25 |
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How do Slavic languages with Latin orthography deal with correct pronunciation of foreign names? Like when you have Joe Dassin byl proslavjeny Amerikanski pevač, how will you pronounce his name without knowing his native origins?
Edited by Moraczewski, Nov 13 2011, 07:00 PM.
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Nov 13 2011, 08:50 PM Post #26 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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@Andrej: They usually don't care about pronunciation. So not surprisingly, foreign names are often pronounced completely wrongly on the radio, for instance. More than once, I've heard Krzysztof Penderecki and Sergej Prokofjev pronounced like ['k@rzistof pEnd@'rEki] and ['sErž@ 'prokofif] on the Dutch radio. The name Wałęsa was consistently pronounced either [va'lesa] or [va'lEnza], and Bartók usually sounded like [bAr'tOk]. AFAIK the BBC had a special department for figuring out these issues, so they did a better job. That was before the digital age, of course. On the other hand, when you first transliterate a name into Cyrillic and then back, the result can become pretty hard to recognise. I remember having had a hard time with the name Djumulen once... [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Nov 13 2011, 08:53 PM Post #27 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I don't know what other languages do, but in Polish only those names are inflected that are, well, known enough. You say: "Mieszkam w Amsterdamie", but also "Mieskzam w Alkmaar" rather than "Mieszkam w Alkmaarze".
Sure, that's a possibility. But not always a practical one. First of all, not every knows both the correct spelling AND the correct pronunciation. Secondly, it's kind of inconvenient, especially in a text with a lot of names. [čćч] Edited by IJzeren Jan, Nov 13 2011, 08:55 PM.
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Nov 14 2011, 06:01 AM Post #28 |
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I also remember one of Gabriels articles in gazeta was mentioning some Afgani leader with duplicating his name in all three official languages of Afganistan. Russian doesn't often inflect foreign names, only when they fit usual declensions (including gender). So while Черчилль is inflected, Тэтчер is not. Алькмаар would be inflected, even though it's absolutely unknown to average Russian. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Nov 14 2011, 07:54 AM Post #29 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Hehe, yes, Russian is funny in that it duplicates vowels like Dutch does. Also in the case of Заандам (where the central square has a statue of Peter I, by the way. ![]() In Polish foreign and non-foreign male names are inflected, female names aren't, unless they can be inflected as adjectives. So Nowak remains Nowak in the genitive, but Nowakowska and Nowakowa become Nowakowskiej and Nowakowej. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Kozica | Nov 14 2011, 11:06 AM Post #30 |
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well no, if the name is ending on -o that is why there is no polish names ends on -o :p that is why should be Hugon Kołłątaj not Hugo. there is a street name "ulica Hugona Kołątaja", if it would be "Hugo" it must be "ulica Hugo Kołataja", never "ulica Huga Kołataja" (typical error in spoken polish) My name is Brunon, most of my polish and not polish friends call my just Bruno. but when poles are saying "idę z Brunem", "byłem u Bruna" I must correct them (all my life... ) "z Brunonem", ""u Brunona Edited by Kozica, Nov 14 2011, 11:07 AM.
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