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Representation of names in Slovianski; Was: Slovianska Wiki
Topic Started: Sep 6 2011, 02:08 PM (3,315 Views)
VladUkr
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Here my first wiki (I wrote it about my city)
I only teach slovianski, but I think I will know it very good soon, because I know russian and ukrainian (they are my native languages)
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steeven
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Витај! :D
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
Now here's a question, shouldn't it be Dnepropetrovsk in Slovianski since Dnepr is spelled with -e- in Slovianski and that's the general reflex of yat?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Привіт Владе, вітай на форум! Зокрема, я мушу сказати, що мені багато подобає ся твій прапор. Добра робота! :)

About Dnipropetrovsk... Yeah, I guess Igor's right. Ukrainian is a bit of a weird language in this respect, because Ukrainian і rarely matches i in other Slavic languages. Usually it matches either ě or o.

Geographical names are always a bit of a problem. From one side, we say that we don't follow etymology here and stay as close to the original language's pronunciation as orthography allows us. From that point of view youv'e done the right thing. On the other hand, things aren't that simple.

I think we've agreed that it is good to make the i/y distinction in Slovianski, but only in cases were all the languages that make this distinction agree about it. Ukrainian, despite appearances, is not a real i/y language: just like in South Slavic, i and y merge in Ukrainian, the difference is only that in Ukrainian they merge into y, while it produces a secondary i. That puts Ukrainian in a unique position in terms of mapping characters and sounds. When it comes to transcribing Ukrainian names, I feel inclined not to use y/ы at all, and stick to i/и (that's what Ukrainian itself does, too). Perhaps with the possible exception of those cases where the other languages have y/ы, like in Чорнобыль (I don't think there's a good reason to write Чернобыль instead).

As for names on -ів/-їв, they should become -ov/-jev for the same reason that the Polish ending -ów becomes -ov, too: because it is in fact the nominative that is out of line here. It's Київ and Львів, but до Києва and до Львова. That why the best forms in Slovianski would be Kijev/Кијев and Ľvov/Львов.

As for Днипро vs. Днҍпр, well this is kind of a difficult case. A good argument for Днепр is that not a single language writes "Днипр(о)" that way. Besides, let's face it: all Slavic languages have their regular reflex of ě, so "Dněpr" - even Ukrainian does that. Only Belarusian could have helped out, but they have Дняпро, which doesn't get us any further. But if we use Dněpr or Dněpro, it means that etymology decides and not pronunciation. Well, the river is not that much of a problem, because it run through several countries, but that cannot be said about cities like Dnipropetrovsk. Which of course does not change the fact that "Dněpropetrovsk" is easier to understand for Ukrainians than "Dnipropetrovsk" for all other Slavs. I guess the wisest thing we can do here is simply allow both.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
Administrator
I think there's a good reason to have Чернобыль - because черны is the name of the color
same thing with Белград, it shouldn't be Београд
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I don't know. Taking that path, we actually start translating names. Next thing you know is that we'll have Novogrĺd, Bělýstok and Ľubjana.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Sep 10 2011, 03:00 PM
I don't know. Taking that path, we actually start translating names. Next thing you know is that we'll have Novogrĺd, Bělýstok and Ľubjana.

[čćч]
*Novgrĺd to be precise
Ľubľana remains the same because it's not Slavic in origin
Edited by iopq, Sep 10 2011, 09:06 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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VladUkr
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I thought that national names of cities are better, but if a lot of people say that it is worse because Russian names of East Ukraine cities (not only Dni(e)propetrovsk) understand much more people, I'll correct it.
Edited by VladUkr, Sep 20 2011, 11:13 AM.
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Gabriel Svoboda

Not only east Ukrainian, but all Ukrainian cities are better understood under their Russian names, because in fact they are not Russian names, they are common Slavic names adopted before Ukrainian diverged and introduced its own peculiarities. So it should be Dnepropetrovsk (not Dněpropetrovsk - it would be a translation of a proper name, which would open Pandora's box).

Code:
 
Дн епроп етровс к
Дн іпроп етровськ /2
Дн епрап ятроўс к /2
Dnieprop etrows k /2
Dniepropietrows k /2
Dn ěprop etrovs k /2
Dn eprop etrovs k /2
Дњ епроп етровс к /2
Dn eprop etrovs k /2
Дн епроп етровс к


But in case of small cities, when the standard transliteration is not overriden by a more common exonym, the standard transliteration used by Slavic languages is и --> y (ы) and і --> i (и).
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I respectfully disagree.

First of all, I'm used to a very simple mechanism: whenever Russian has Е and Ukrainian has І, Slovianski has Ě. Secondly, at the time when Ukrainian diverged and introduced it's own peculiarities, Russian still had ҍ. Actually Ҍ > Е is a modern Russian innovation, just like Ukrainian Ҍ > І. Since we don't do innovations that aren't carried by a majority, Ҍ can simply become Ě (which can be represented in Slovianski as E, but that's a different story).

Besides, representing Ukrainian И as Ы even in cases where Russian has И strikes me as odd, just like representing Ukrainian Г by Х (h).

Ukrainian is just difficult in that it merged I and Y like South Slavic does, into something that is closer to Y than to I, and in addition it developed a secondary I from Ě, O and a few other cases.

[čćч]

Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
First of all, I'm used to a very simple mechanism: whenever Russian has Е and Ukrainian has І, Slovianski has Ě.


That's good for ordinary vocabulary. But what if you don't know what Russian (or any other language) has? It happens often with proper names. How do you transliterate Ситихів, Шнирів, Сирота Лео? The interlanguage links are silent.

Yes, for Сирота you can guess it is a cognate of the ordinary Russian word сирота, but that's in fact translating the name, and I hope no one would agree with rendering Frank Piasecki as Frank Pěsňčkí (cf. Polish piasek and Slovianski pěsňk).

Of course, for cities large enough and people famous enough to have their own equivalents in may languages, Slovianski should coin its own one as well. But I don't think it's a good idea to use "Naučni" or "Plus" characters in this case (except for ý, í, á, ó, é and perhaps ň, č, which are necessary for declension). Otherwise it would be a double standard: Днепропетровск would become Dněpropetrovsk because it's pronounced the same as Dnepropetrovsk anyway, but Piasecki would not become Pěseckí because the pronunciation must be Pjaseckí.

To sum up, I propose Sytyhov, Šnyrov, Syrota Leo, Frank Pjaseckí, Dnepropetrovsk.
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iopq
Administrator
why Сырота? that looks funky as hell, and something related to cheese

either Шниров or Шнырив, pick etymological approach or phonetic
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Kozica
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I think we should let people decide how they want to write they own words
the best advice is stick with phonetic for words taken from (more) phonetic system and stick with etymological for others. In second group is first of all english so always "Winston Churchill" not "winston czerczil", because it could be also "czeczl" like some people pronouns. Allways "Margaret Thatcher", not "taczer" or "faczer".
Cities and town, haha if sombody will write "windom" nobody will recognise that it is "wyndham"

It would be difficult for poles to read about "Heum" (Chełm), "Maria Kiuri" (Curie),

Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz, Chrząszczyżewoszyce powiat Łękołody?
gżegoż bżenczyszczykievicz, hżonszczyżevoszyce?
nooo :/
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iopq
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Kozica
Nov 11 2011, 05:48 PM
I think we should let people decide how they want to write they own words
the best advice is stick with phonetic for words taken from (more) phonetic system and stick with etymological for others. In second group is first of all english so always "Winston Churchill" not "winston czerczil", because it could be also "czeczl" like some people pronouns. Allways "Margaret Thatcher", not "taczer" or "faczer".
ok, so how are you going to write it in Cyrillic?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Kozica
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I can't help you with your own alphabet
I think when you will write something in cyrillic and adress it to other cyrillic users you will find "the good way", base on experience with your mother tongue.

You should (may) use my advices only when use latin system.
I'm only interesting in latin orthography because it is only orthography I use and know (I'm member of non educated part of humanity :p ).
I'm not wish or try to give advices to cyrylic, arabic or chinese system users.
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