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| Letter J in cyrillic alphabet. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 2 2011, 02:01 PM (2,409 Views) | |
| BYKCAH | Apr 2 2011, 02:01 PM Post #1 |
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Здрав всем из Сербии. I noticed that Cyrillic alphabet contains letter J instead of Й. I think that is worse option, because of two reasons. -First is, most Cyrillic Slavic languages (and especially speakers) have Й: Russians, White Russians, Ukrainians and Bulgarians. -Secondly, "J" is not real Cyrillic letter. It was introduced from German alphabet at a beginning of 19th century into newly formed kind of Cyrillic made together by Vuk Karadzic and Jernej Kopitar, representative of Austrian government, for Serbs. Their goals for replacement of Й by J were political, to see would Serbs accept future hybrid alphabet planned by Austrians. So it is foreign body in Cyrillic alphabet, and is the part only of hybrid Serbian and Macedonian alphabets. I am from Serbia, but I always in writing use Й, not Latin J. Some Serbs I know also do like me. To be short, letter J is Cyrillic as much as Ж is Latin. |
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| BYKCAH | Apr 2 2011, 04:39 PM Post #2 |
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I am sorry, I put this in wrong subforum. It should be in "Fonologija i pravopis". Please transfer this to the right place, if any admin could. |
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| steeven | Apr 2 2011, 04:42 PM Post #3 |
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And that is perhaps why we have the option and the freedom to use the letter of our choice - "J" or "Й" This has been a subject long ago of a lot of discussion. One of the important considerations was what letters were available on keyboards. I like the freedom of choice option best |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| Aquarius | Apr 3 2011, 05:16 AM Post #4 |
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Interesny fakt. Ja ne znal. Edited by Aquarius, Apr 3 2011, 12:04 PM.
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| Slov dobryh obranje čini se črez glasovanje! | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Apr 3 2011, 09:11 AM Post #5 |
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Interesting. Do you and they also write йа, йе, йи, йо, йу then? |
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| steeven | Apr 3 2011, 04:48 PM Post #6 |
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Добро питање! or is it: Добро питанйе! ? Edited by steeven, Apr 3 2011, 04:48 PM.
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| wannabeme | Apr 3 2011, 06:40 PM Post #7 |
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We use Ь for palatalizing of Л, Н and й is simply J like in ja, je, jo, ju, ji or aj, ej, oj, ij, uj. In latin cirili j is used for both, j and palatalizing of l and n. I dont know why this antipathy against j or latin as if it were some foreign stuff when you know thar cyrilic alphabet is actualy a version of greek alphabet plus some special signs for slavic palatals. Not long time ago Serbian as well as Slovensk had a, o, oy, e, и and ia, ie, ю, ie, i where at i was without the dot. So why would've й and not j took over the function of the fotmer i without the dot? Vuk Stefanovic was the only Serbian who really knew how to write and use slavonic cyrilic properly. And thats why he reformed it because he couldnt see anymore that unalphabetism among serbian people. Today many of some Serbs who consider themselves patriotic and orthodox are trying to be smarty pants accusing Vuk without even having read any of his books. Besides reading and science are taboo in Serbia thats why every scientist like Tesla or Vuk would have been or would be rejected laughing on them and some politicans and priests who would say that they are heavenly nation accepted with open hands. Edited by wannabeme, Apr 3 2011, 06:48 PM.
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| Moraczewski | Apr 3 2011, 06:57 PM Post #8 |
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In fact it is the ЙА ЙЕ orthography that Russians hate the most. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| gossips | Apr 3 2011, 07:10 PM Post #9 |
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You gathered some statistics already? =) Well, i don't like йа/йе, but i can stand it, because otherwise I need a non-standard layout for my keyboard to avoid the constant switching between Ru-En layouts, while I'm typing in Slovianski, so йа/йе ain't so bad for me. |
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Višla matka kuročka, S nej mali kuriati: "Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko, Nesimati hoditi daleko!" | |
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| BYKCAH | Apr 7 2011, 04:18 AM Post #10 |
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Interesting. Do you and they also write йа, йе, йи, йо, йу then? Yes, I always write йе, йи, йо, йу, but я! И "добро питање"! |
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| BYKCAH | Apr 7 2011, 04:48 PM Post #11 |
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Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic was biggest corrupter for Serbian grammar and language as there could be. Destroyer of our grammar could be best description for him. Because of him and his destructive deeds I often feel shame before our Slavic brothers. But this is not right place for talk about him and motives for such deeds. I shall only advise you to see only one example, what he has done with Serbian plural cases, eliminating all forms unknown by peasants in his own village, but known across other Serbs regions. Without his involvement in things he did not understood our noun grammar will look much more like original Serbian, common Slavic, and Slovianski's of course. Serbs has saying "What single crazy man can do, thousand clever men cannot repair." Vuk is excellent example. |
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| wannabeme | Apr 7 2011, 11:09 PM Post #12 |
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You can think whatever you want, my dear friend. But there are some facts that show that Vuk really didnt deserve such words from you. -While other Serbs from Belgrade or Niš or other cities were walking through the nahijas and pašaluks in their čakširs proudly trying to speak some mix of russian, german and turkish our gimpy limpy Vuk walked through the whole region where ethnic Serbs lived and wrote down songs, fairytales, believing of the people, slavic overrests. He wrote the first Serbian dictionary; the first serbian grammar; He collected old serbian scripts from churches, among them Dušanov Zakonik, Nomokanon of St. Sava, and many hystorical recordings, and brought them to Šafarik, who put them in his book. He was friend of Goethe and brother Grimm who appreciated his work and were so amazed that they started learning Serbian. Vuk was opening Serbs to the World. And I don't know what plurals are you taking about. Half of Serbia didnt use any cases at all. Č'k od Braničevo p'k do Pčinja ne se govoraše sos padeži nik'g. Only some peasants (how you call them ) in Raška and Zlatibor and Mačva used at least some case system. You, Sir, and me will never ever get done not a 10% of what Vuk has done for his people. He didnt talk to much, he worked. And try not to be such a "otoman balkanish" kind of man who talks a lot and knows everything without reading any book ever. Evo ti Vukova kolekcija pa se ne javljaj o njemu dok sve ne pročitaš. A ja se mogu kladiti da će tebi biti teško pročitati i po 50 stranica svake knjige, a njemu nije bilo teško napisiti ih tolike, slovo za slovom. Lako je glumiti Slovena, i stidjeti se tudjih djela, a isto tako i ponositi se tudjim djelima. Ali teško je ponositi se sam svojih ili stidjeti se svojih a kamo li dovesti tolike ljude da se sami ponose tvojim radom ili čak stide. S uvaženjem Gosn http://scr.digital.nb.rs/document/S-II-0474 |
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| BYKCAH | Apr 8 2011, 05:49 PM Post #13 |
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Vuk stole many books from Serbian churches and sold them for money. He is known thief. You should know that. His so called "Serbian" grammar is in fact grammar of his own village, not of whole Serbian language. I read it, you should also. And it was made on base of grammar of Avram Mrazovic. Using copy and paste method with corrections to fit dialect of Trsic. His dictionary of Serbo-Turkish language was in big part copied from Croatian dictionaries (I mean, words that were not of Asian origin). And do not forget that he was, besides Goethe, friend with Austrian secret service members. When I speak about plural cases, I do not speak about south-eastern Serbian dialects. But about that I wrote today on different theme. You forgot to say that he also collected porn tales. And that he was enemy of Serbian Slavic heritage, cleanser of language of so called by him "Slavic words". For him, Serbs were not Slavs. And please do not make assumptions about number of books or pages I have read in my life. When talking about Vuk, I have read many of his works. I wanted to see some proofs for my earlier thoughts about him. And I fount plenty of them. |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Apr 9 2011, 06:58 AM Post #14 |
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A very interesting discussion. But for the purpose of Slovianski, we use standard languages as they actually are, not as they should have been if their speakers had been more patriotic or less confident in corrupters or etc. etc. Since such opinions are not universal - if they were, Serbs would already have changed their language. |
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2:14 PM Jul 11