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Using Google to read Slovianski aloud
Topic Started: Feb 12 2011, 07:47 PM (3,635 Views)
iopq
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gossips
Feb 16 2011, 02:59 AM
IJzeren Jan
Feb 15 2011, 03:17 PM
Quote:
 
The Микола vs. Николай issue just shows that one east Slavic person will have two or even three names dependent on the source language, it is inevitable, no transliteration scheme can solve it.

That's true. But let's face it, changing Ukrainian Mykola to Russian Nikolaj or Polish Mikołaj is in fact translating the name. It's like English Henry vs. German Heinrich and Dutch Hendrik. The fact that Russian still has the habit of doing this to Ukrainian names is a leftover from the days when Ukrainian wasn't even considered anything but a regional variety of Russian, which - I hope - will disappear sooner or later.


http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Петро_I_Олексійович

=)
The fact that Ukrainian still has the habit of doing this to Russian names is a leftover from the days when Russian wasn't even considered anything but a regional variety of Ukrainian, which - I hope - will disappear sooner or later.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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belostenec

Gabriel Svoboda
Feb 15 2011, 11:41 AM
So yes, in a majority of languages it is treated as a noun. But then Polish and Serbo-Croatian speakers should tell us which east Slavic adjectives exactly they still decline as adjectives, since no language seems to use Vysockija or Javorivśkija. What is the delimitation? Does any grammar book mention it?

I'm a native Croatian speaker and would just like to answer this portion of your post. It seems that east Slavic names that have the form of adjectives in -ski (that is, -ский in Russian) are perceived as adjectives in Croatian too (since many of our adjectives and in -ski as well: gradski, vremenski, engleski, ruski...) and so such names decline as adjectives: Stravinski is Stravinskog(a) in the genitive - the -a is entirely optional - Stravinskom(u) in the dative - again the -u is optional, and so on.

A name such is Толстой (Tolstoj in Croatian) is not perceived as an adjective at all. I daresay no Croat senses any meaning behind the word in the first place (who would link it to the rarely used Croatian cognate 'tusti'?). That is perhaps why the name declines as a noun: Tolstoja, Tolstoju, Tolstoja, Tolstoju! (the vocative is always placed within the general case paradigm in Croatian), (o) Tolstoju, (s) Tolstojem. The stress is on the first syllable.

Last names in -ов and -ев, though morphologically the same as the Croatian possessives in -ov and -ev (lovčev, knezov, susjedov), also decline as nouns, and not as possessive adjectives: Kuznjecova, Mendeljejeva. Interesting to note is that the possessive of these already originally possessive form is formed in -ljev: Kuznjecovljev. Double possessive... "why are you being so possessive?" LOL

Last names in -ич decline as nouns since the ending -ić is the most common ending for both Croatian and Serbian surnames (and -ič is not uncommon in Slovene, either).

I cannot guarantee, but I think it's much the same in Serbian.




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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Dobrodošli Belostenče, milo vas tu privitati! I hvala za komentař.
Da, ja imam skazati, že v poľskom je tako, kak v hrvatskom. Točno tako samo.

[čćч]


Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Obrens
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belostenec
Jul 3 2011, 05:45 PM
Last names in -ов and -ев, though morphologically the same as the Croatian possessives in -ov and -ev (lovčev, knezov, susjedov), also decline as nouns, and not as possessive adjectives: Kuznjecova, Mendeljejeva. Interesting to note is that the possessive of these already originally possessive form is formed in -ljev: Kuznjecovljev. Double possessive... "why are you being so possessive?" LOL
Hmmm, ne jesi sovsem v pravu tu. Mužka prezimena na -ov, -ev se menjaju jako imeniki, da. Ale ženska prezimena na -ova, -eva se menjaju jako prisvojni priložitelni.

N Mendeljejev
G Mendeljejeva
D Mandeljejevu
...
Ale zato:
N Šarapova
G Šarapove
D Šarapovoj
...
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belostenec

Obrens
Jul 3 2011, 08:21 PM
Hmmm, ne jesi sovsem v pravu tu. Mužka prezimena na -ov, -ev se menjaju jako imeniki, da. Ale ženska prezimena na -ova, -eva se menjaju jako prisvojni priložitelni.

N Šarapova
G Šarapove
D Šarapovoj
...
Da, to jest pravilno, zabil jsem ženski rod. Izvinite!

Ja ješče nikako ne umijem govoriti slovianski, tak što, nadam se, moj improvizirovani govor sostavlen od mnogih jezikov vas ne goni v smeh. Mne samom moja beseda zvuči male komično :) I mam impuls načati govoriti ruski (mozhno li inogda?), no ruski takože ne znam dobro ni mnogo...

Hvala za dobrodošlicu, Jan! Prjam denes ja soznal o slovianskomu jeziku v wikipedije.

I ne znam esli vidite kogda pišu dijakritiki? Kogda načinim Preview, vygledit što moji dijakritiki ne prikazuju se normalno.
Edited by belostenec, Jul 3 2011, 09:58 PM.
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Obrens
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Dobro ti ide, Stenče. To je poenta slovjanskog – mešanje slovenskih jezika. Vremenom ćeš naučiti kako da ta tvoja mešavina bude što razumljivija svim Slovenima.
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Gabriel Svoboda

Thanks for the answers, belostenec and Obrens! So the rule for Slovianski is clear: -skij is always an adjective, anything else (-oj, -ov, ...) is treated as a foreign noun. The question of double possessives is an interesting one, but we don't need to solve it, since Slovianski doesn't have possesive adjectives anyway.

Just for the record, in Czech we naturally don't recognize Tolstoj as anything related to our native tlustý, the Tolstého declension is a learned rule. On the other hand, the recognition of -ski as adjectives goes so far that we write things like Monica Lewinská. Double possessives are allowed: Mendeleyev's periodic table of elements is Mendělejevova periodická soustava prvků and the daughter of Yuri Sharapov is Maria Šarapovová.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel Svoboda
Jul 7 2011, 12:52 PM
Thanks for the answers, belostenec and Obrens! So the rule for Slovianski is clear: -skij is always an adjective, anything else (-oj, -ov, ...) is treated as a foreign noun.
What goes for -ski, does it also go for names on -ny, -ly etc.? And how about non-Slavic names like "Kelly" or "Murphy"?

Quote:
 
Just for the record, in Czech we naturally don't recognize Tolstoj as anything related to our native tlustý, the Tolstého declension is a learned rule. On the other hand, the recognition of -ski as adjectives goes so far that we write things like Monica Lewinská.

Hehe, Czech is a funny language from that point of view. When I was in Prague for the first time (21 years ago), I remember laughing out loud when I saw an announcement of a Dutch movie starring Monique van de Venová. :)

Quote:
 
The question of double possessives is an interesting one, but we don't need to solve it, since Slovianski doesn't have possesive adjectives anyway.

Well, to put it differently, they are not currently described in the grammar. I remember this issue has been discussed, but that was in a auxlangy days when even having a thing like grammatical gender was already quite an adventurious step. Perhaps we should reconsider this now. Which languages have possessive adjectives anyway?

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
What goes for -ski, does it also go for names on -ny, -ly etc.?


At the first sight, f. ex. Mirnyj seems to be completely the same case as Tolstoj. But I didn't manage to find any instances of Mirnyja, Mirnyju, Mirnyjě etc. So it seems only -oj and possessives are treated as nouns, while -ij, -yj, -skij are treated as adjectives.

Quote:
 
And how about non-Slavic names like "Kelly" or "Murphy"?


I have checked the Wikipedia article on Luciano Pavarotti:

east Slavic: indeclinable
Polish: adjectival declension Pavarotti-ego, Pavarotti-emu, ...
Czech/Slovak: adjectival (pronominal) declension Pavarotti-go, Pavarotti-mu ...
Serbo-Croatian/Slovenian: substantival declension Pavarotti-a, Pavarotti-u ...
Bulgarian/Macedonian: no declension (obviously)

This can be interpreted in two ways:

1) 3 votes with an overhelming majority of population will be fine with no declension.

2) It's dirty to allow Bulgarian/Macedonian to vote on declension, so no declension has 2 votes, declension has 3 votes. Adjectival declension has 2 votes as opposed to substantival declension with 1 vote. The Polish pattern (-ego, -emu) wins over the Czech/Slovak one due to population.

Quote:
 
Hehe, Czech is a funny language from that point of view.


Indeed. :) Unfortunately, doing this with foreign surnames is opposed by a majority of Czech speakers according to recent opinion polls (although linguists disagree, since most of the opposers' arguments would be applicable not only to this case, but to the whole idea of declension as well).

Quote:
 
Which languages have possessive adjectives anyway?


They are universal except for Polish (and perhaps Belarusian which I didn't check). But why to sacrifice the understandability to Poles by introducing something that can be be avoided completely easily using genitive?
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel Svoboda
Jul 7 2011, 03:02 PM
This can be interpreted in two ways:

1) 3 votes with an overhelming majority of population will be fine with no declension.

2) It's dirty to allow Bulgarian/Macedonian to vote on declension, so no declension has 2 votes, declension has 3 votes. Adjectival declension has 2 votes as opposed to substantival declension with 1 vote. The Polish pattern (-ego, -emu) wins over the Czech/Slovak one due to population.
Well, I'd rather interpret it in a third way: "do whatever you're used to".

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Which languages have possessive adjectives anyway?


They are universal except for Polish (and perhaps Belarusian which I didn't check). But why to sacrifice the understandability to Poles by introducing something that can be be avoided completely easily using genitive?

Well, first of all I wouldn't say they are non-existant in Polish. AFAIK they are pretty much alive in several dialects. If you say "Gdzie jest ojcowa fajka?" it doesn't sound odd or difficult to understand at all. Everybody knows that Kraków means "Krak's". And in any case, the ending -owy is very often used in Polish in similar meanings as well. So as far as I am concerned, this is a bit of a non-problem. I'm sure it doesn't make things any more difficult for Poles than genitives make it for Bulgarians.

If it's really that universal, we should at least mention it (perhaps with a note that it is better avoided in contacts with Poles). Interslavic communication does not always necessarily have to include Poles, after all.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Obrens
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Gabriel Svoboda
Jul 7 2011, 03:02 PM
At the first sight, f. ex. Mirnyj seems to be completely the same case as Tolstoj. But I didn't manage to find any instances of Mirnyja, Mirnyju, Mirnyjě etc. So it seems only -oj and possessives are treated as nouns, while -ij, -yj, -skij are treated as adjectives.
Јербо наставак -ој није нормалан за мужки род једнине приложитељних.
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steeven
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Obrens
Jul 8 2011, 01:21 AM
приложитељних
??
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
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Obrens
Jul 8 2011, 01:21 AM
Gabriel Svoboda
Jul 7 2011, 03:02 PM
At the first sight, f. ex. Mirnyj seems to be completely the same case as Tolstoj. But I didn't manage to find any instances of Mirnyja, Mirnyju, Mirnyjě etc. So it seems only -oj and possessives are treated as nouns, while -ij, -yj, -skij are treated as adjectives.
Јербо наставак -ој није нормалан за мужки род једнине приложитељних.
В руском jе - худой, большой
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Obrens
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Да, на русском. У нас не јест нормалан и зато не разумимо Толстој јако приложитељни.
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iopq
Administrator
we need more recordings
Gabriel, how did you do a long recording? google complains about those, did you just do like a million parts?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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