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| Using Google to read Slovianski aloud | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 12 2011, 07:47 PM (3,635 Views) | |
| iopq | Feb 27 2011, 12:20 AM Post #31 |
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The fact that Ukrainian still has the habit of doing this to Russian names is a leftover from the days when Russian wasn't even considered anything but a regional variety of Ukrainian, which - I hope - will disappear sooner or later. |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| belostenec | Jul 3 2011, 05:45 PM Post #32 |
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I'm a native Croatian speaker and would just like to answer this portion of your post. It seems that east Slavic names that have the form of adjectives in -ski (that is, -ский in Russian) are perceived as adjectives in Croatian too (since many of our adjectives and in -ski as well: gradski, vremenski, engleski, ruski...) and so such names decline as adjectives: Stravinski is Stravinskog(a) in the genitive - the -a is entirely optional - Stravinskom(u) in the dative - again the -u is optional, and so on. A name such is Толстой (Tolstoj in Croatian) is not perceived as an adjective at all. I daresay no Croat senses any meaning behind the word in the first place (who would link it to the rarely used Croatian cognate 'tusti'?). That is perhaps why the name declines as a noun: Tolstoja, Tolstoju, Tolstoja, Tolstoju! (the vocative is always placed within the general case paradigm in Croatian), (o) Tolstoju, (s) Tolstojem. The stress is on the first syllable. Last names in -ов and -ев, though morphologically the same as the Croatian possessives in -ov and -ev (lovčev, knezov, susjedov), also decline as nouns, and not as possessive adjectives: Kuznjecova, Mendeljejeva. Interesting to note is that the possessive of these already originally possessive form is formed in -ljev: Kuznjecovljev. Double possessive... "why are you being so possessive?" LOL Last names in -ич decline as nouns since the ending -ić is the most common ending for both Croatian and Serbian surnames (and -ič is not uncommon in Slovene, either). I cannot guarantee, but I think it's much the same in Serbian. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 3 2011, 07:16 PM Post #33 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Dobrodošli Belostenče, milo vas tu privitati! I hvala za komentař. Da, ja imam skazati, že v poľskom je tako, kak v hrvatskom. Točno tako samo. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Obrens | Jul 3 2011, 08:21 PM Post #34 |
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Hmmm, ne jesi sovsem v pravu tu. Mužka prezimena na -ov, -ev se menjaju jako imeniki, da. Ale ženska prezimena na -ova, -eva se menjaju jako prisvojni priložitelni. N Mendeljejev G Mendeljejeva D Mandeljejevu ... Ale zato: N Šarapova G Šarapove D Šarapovoj ... |
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| belostenec | Jul 3 2011, 09:53 PM Post #35 |
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Da, to jest pravilno, zabil jsem ženski rod. Izvinite! Ja ješče nikako ne umijem govoriti slovianski, tak što, nadam se, moj improvizirovani govor sostavlen od mnogih jezikov vas ne goni v smeh. Mne samom moja beseda zvuči male komično I mam impuls načati govoriti ruski (mozhno li inogda?), no ruski takože ne znam dobro ni mnogo...Hvala za dobrodošlicu, Jan! Prjam denes ja soznal o slovianskomu jeziku v wikipedije. I ne znam esli vidite kogda pišu dijakritiki? Kogda načinim Preview, vygledit što moji dijakritiki ne prikazuju se normalno. Edited by belostenec, Jul 3 2011, 09:58 PM.
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| Obrens | Jul 4 2011, 12:18 AM Post #36 |
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Dobro ti ide, Stenče. To je poenta slovjanskog – mešanje slovenskih jezika. Vremenom ćeš naučiti kako da ta tvoja mešavina bude što razumljivija svim Slovenima. |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Jul 7 2011, 12:52 PM Post #37 |
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Thanks for the answers, belostenec and Obrens! So the rule for Slovianski is clear: -skij is always an adjective, anything else (-oj, -ov, ...) is treated as a foreign noun. The question of double possessives is an interesting one, but we don't need to solve it, since Slovianski doesn't have possesive adjectives anyway. Just for the record, in Czech we naturally don't recognize Tolstoj as anything related to our native tlustý, the Tolstého declension is a learned rule. On the other hand, the recognition of -ski as adjectives goes so far that we write things like Monica Lewinská. Double possessives are allowed: Mendeleyev's periodic table of elements is Mendělejevova periodická soustava prvků and the daughter of Yuri Sharapov is Maria Šarapovová. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 7 2011, 01:04 PM Post #38 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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What goes for -ski, does it also go for names on -ny, -ly etc.? And how about non-Slavic names like "Kelly" or "Murphy"?
Hehe, Czech is a funny language from that point of view. When I was in Prague for the first time (21 years ago), I remember laughing out loud when I saw an announcement of a Dutch movie starring Monique van de Venová. ![]()
Well, to put it differently, they are not currently described in the grammar. I remember this issue has been discussed, but that was in a auxlangy days when even having a thing like grammatical gender was already quite an adventurious step. Perhaps we should reconsider this now. Which languages have possessive adjectives anyway? [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Jul 7 2011, 03:02 PM Post #39 |
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At the first sight, f. ex. Mirnyj seems to be completely the same case as Tolstoj. But I didn't manage to find any instances of Mirnyja, Mirnyju, Mirnyjě etc. So it seems only -oj and possessives are treated as nouns, while -ij, -yj, -skij are treated as adjectives.
I have checked the Wikipedia article on Luciano Pavarotti: east Slavic: indeclinable Polish: adjectival declension Pavarotti-ego, Pavarotti-emu, ... Czech/Slovak: adjectival (pronominal) declension Pavarotti-go, Pavarotti-mu ... Serbo-Croatian/Slovenian: substantival declension Pavarotti-a, Pavarotti-u ... Bulgarian/Macedonian: no declension (obviously) This can be interpreted in two ways: 1) 3 votes with an overhelming majority of population will be fine with no declension. 2) It's dirty to allow Bulgarian/Macedonian to vote on declension, so no declension has 2 votes, declension has 3 votes. Adjectival declension has 2 votes as opposed to substantival declension with 1 vote. The Polish pattern (-ego, -emu) wins over the Czech/Slovak one due to population.
Indeed. Unfortunately, doing this with foreign surnames is opposed by a majority of Czech speakers according to recent opinion polls (although linguists disagree, since most of the opposers' arguments would be applicable not only to this case, but to the whole idea of declension as well).
They are universal except for Polish (and perhaps Belarusian which I didn't check). But why to sacrifice the understandability to Poles by introducing something that can be be avoided completely easily using genitive? |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 7 2011, 04:34 PM Post #40 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Well, I'd rather interpret it in a third way: "do whatever you're used to".
Well, first of all I wouldn't say they are non-existant in Polish. AFAIK they are pretty much alive in several dialects. If you say "Gdzie jest ojcowa fajka?" it doesn't sound odd or difficult to understand at all. Everybody knows that Kraków means "Krak's". And in any case, the ending -owy is very often used in Polish in similar meanings as well. So as far as I am concerned, this is a bit of a non-problem. I'm sure it doesn't make things any more difficult for Poles than genitives make it for Bulgarians. If it's really that universal, we should at least mention it (perhaps with a note that it is better avoided in contacts with Poles). Interslavic communication does not always necessarily have to include Poles, after all. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Obrens | Jul 8 2011, 01:21 AM Post #41 |
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Јербо наставак -ој није нормалан за мужки род једнине приложитељних. |
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| steeven | Jul 8 2011, 03:54 AM Post #42 |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| iopq | Jul 11 2011, 10:50 AM Post #43 |
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В руском jе - худой, большой |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Obrens | Jul 11 2011, 03:51 PM Post #44 |
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Да, на русском. У нас не јест нормалан и зато не разумимо Толстој јако приложитељни. |
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| iopq | Jul 13 2011, 08:25 AM Post #45 |
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we need more recordings Gabriel, how did you do a long recording? google complains about those, did you just do like a million parts? |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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I mam impuls načati govoriti ruski (mozhno li inogda?), no ruski takože ne znam dobro ni mnogo...
2:17 PM Jul 11