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Using Google to read Slovianski aloud
Topic Started: Feb 12 2011, 07:47 PM (3,636 Views)
iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Feb 14 2011, 07:07 PM
I'm not quite sure about a case like "Tolstoj", though. Tolsty wouldn't even be recognised by everybody, so that can hardly be the solution. OTOH, Tolstoja would look perfectly normal for a Pole, but probably strange to a Russian. But Tolstoj ~ Tolstogo would make it irregular.

Okay, it's not like we really NEED to have rules for this kind of things, we can easily leave it to the writer of speaker. But nevertheless some kind of guideline might be helpful.
Ukrainian has Толстой ~ Толстого

Quote:
 
(although we definitely should NOT use Ž for Polish RZ)


Too bad, you already made your choice, and we'll DEFINITELY write Ježy Kosinski

there is no middle ground, you either write Juři or Ježy
Edited by iopq, Feb 14 2011, 09:11 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Feb 14 2011, 09:09 PM
Quote:
 
(although we definitely should NOT use Ž for Polish RZ)


Too bad, you already made your choice, and we'll DEFINITELY write Ježy Kosinski

there is no middle ground, you either write Juři or Ježy
I made my choice? I can't imagine I'd ever have vouched for RZ > Ž. I'd much rather use Ř or RŽ.

[čćч]
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Feb 15 2011, 12:07 AM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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iopq
Administrator
IJzeren Jan
Feb 15 2011, 12:06 AM
iopq
Feb 14 2011, 09:09 PM
Quote:
 
(although we definitely should NOT use Ž for Polish RZ)


Too bad, you already made your choice, and we'll DEFINITELY write Ježy Kosinski

there is no middle ground, you either write Juři or Ježy
I made my choice? I can't imagine I'd ever have vouched for RZ > Ž. I'd much rather use Ř or RŽ.

[čćч]
you can't have it both ways

hey guys, when transliterating Ukrainian make sure it's just phonetic so Volodymyr
but when transliterating Polish make sure to do it etymologically

Fact is that Jerzy Andrzejewski is always spelled Йежи Анджейевски in Bulgarian, and Ежи Анджеевский in Russian and Єжи Анджеєвський in Ukrainian and even イェジ・アンジェイェフスキ (Yeji Anjeyefusuki) in Japanese

There is no ř or rž convention in any language except for Nikołaj Przewalski
do you know why? Because at that time the pronunciation rž actually existed
Edited by iopq, Feb 15 2011, 08:11 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

The Микола vs. Николай issue just shows that one east Slavic person will have two or even three names dependent on the source language, it is inevitable, no transliteration scheme can solve it.

So, I bascially agree with Jan. I also agree irregularity in declension should be avoided, so it should be Ľvov, Krakov, and also Lukašenko (most Slavic languages perceive it as neuter).

For east Slavic adjectives ending in -j (Javorivśký/ij, Tolstý/oj), I've checked Wikipedia a little bit. (East Slavic languages don't count since Tolstoj is not a foreign surname there, Bulgarian-Macedonian don't count for obvious reasons.)

Polish: ... koncepcja autorstwa Tołstoja ...
Czech: ... z pěti dětí Nikolaje Iljiče Tolstého ...
Slovak: Význam L. N. Tolstého ...
Serbian: ... од оца Николаја Илича Толстоја ...
Croatian: ... za Tolstoja ...

So yes, in a majority of languages it is treated as a noun. But then Polish and Serbo-Croatian speakers should tell us which east Slavic adjectives exactly they still decline as adjectives, since no language seems to use Vysockija or Javorivśkija. What is the delimitation? Does any grammar book mention it?

Another question: Bělgrĺd or Belgrad? I know the former is tempting, but we'd better avoid it (since it would mean we had Belgrod just a few months ago when we still had ĺ --> o).

I agree with iopq it's double standards to have rz --> ř for Polish, but и --> ы for Ukrainian. If we want etymology, we'll have Jerí Andřejevský and Julija Vlĺdimirovna Timošenko. If we agree etymology is tempting but highly unpractical, we'll have Ježí Andžejevský and Julіja Volodymyrivna Tymošenko. Nothing in between.

P.S. To translate George I sugested Juří in my previous post, but actually it was double softening, it should be Jurí. Note it is a soft adjective (like tretí), since I believe it is the original etymology: it is still declined as an adjective in Polish and Czech, and it still has got an adjectival ending in the Russian nominative (Юрий).
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Feb 15 2011, 08:11 AM
IJzeren Jan
Feb 15 2011, 12:06 AM
iopq
Feb 14 2011, 09:09 PM
Quote:
 
(although we definitely should NOT use Ž for Polish RZ)


Too bad, you already made your choice, and we'll DEFINITELY write Ježy Kosinski

there is no middle ground, you either write Juři or Ježy
I made my choice? I can't imagine I'd ever have vouched for RZ > Ž. I'd much rather use Ř or RŽ.

[čćч]
you can't have it both ways

hey guys, when transliterating Ukrainian make sure it's just phonetic so Volodymyr
but when transliterating Polish make sure to do it etymologically
Yes, you're absolutely right about that.

Quote:
 
Fact is that Jerzy Andrzejewski is always spelled Йежи Анджейевски in Bulgarian, and Ежи Анджеевский in Russian and Єжи Анджеєвський in Ukrainian and even イェジ・アンジェイェフスキ (Yeji Anjeyefusuki) in Japanese

There is no ř or rž convention in any language except for Nikołaj Przewalski
do you know why? Because at that time the pronunciation rž actually existed

Yet, this raises an interesting point. The first name of the fellow is "Mikołaj" in Polish, and the surname nowadays is pronounced like "Pševaľski". So how about names like Trzebiatowski, Krzaklewski? Does Cyrillic also use Ж here, even though the correct pronunciation would be Ш?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
The Микола vs. Николай issue just shows that one east Slavic person will have two or even three names dependent on the source language, it is inevitable, no transliteration scheme can solve it.

That's true. But let's face it, changing Ukrainian Mykola to Russian Nikolaj or Polish Mikołaj is in fact translating the name. It's like English Henry vs. German Heinrich and Dutch Hendrik. The fact that Russian still has the habit of doing this to Ukrainian names is a leftover from the days when Ukrainian wasn't even considered anything but a regional variety of Russian, which - I hope - will disappear sooner or later.

This is something to be taken into account whenever a person is translating from Russian. Just like that, if you translate from Ukrainian you'll need to know that Petro & Pavlo are the same guys as Polish Piotr & Paweł or English Peter and Paul. It's not necessarily a very heavy blunder if someone uses the names the way they are represented in the original, it's just that a reader can instantly see what language has been translated from.

Quote:
 
So, I bascially agree with Jan. I also agree irregularity in declension should be avoided, so it should be Ľvov, Krakov, and also Lukašenko (most Slavic languages perceive it as neuter).

Yeah. Although oddly, Polish inflects names on -(en)ko as if they were feminine! Does anyone know how this is done in Belarussian?

In the case of Ľvov and Krakov it's easy in so far that in both languages the root ends in -ov- anyway, so it's rather the nominative that behaves strange.

Quote:
 
For east Slavic adjectives ending in -j (Javorivśký/ij, Tolstý/oj), I've checked Wikipedia a little bit. (East Slavic languages don't count since Tolstoj is not a foreign surname there, Bulgarian-Macedonian don't count for obvious reasons.)

Not so fast! A normal plural is also a form of inflection, and just like any other language, I'm sure Bulgarian and Macedonian have a way of saying: "Are we going to visit the Tolstojs or the Brodskis tonight?"

Quote:
 
So yes, in a majority of languages it is treated as a noun. But then Polish and Serbo-Croatian speakers should tell us which east Slavic adjectives exactly they still decline as adjectives, since no language seems to use Vysockija or Javorivśkija. What is the delimitation? Does any grammar book mention it?

In Polish names on -y or -ski are always treated as adjectives. That goes even for non-Slavic names like Andreotti (> Andreottiego) or Hurley (> Hurley'ego).

Interestingly, not all Polish names on -y automatically have their female forms on -a, though. I know for example about a certain Katarzyna Mokry (gen. > Katarzyny Mokry).

Names on -oj are always treated as nouns.

Quote:
 
Another question: Bělgrĺd or Belgrad? I know the former is tempting, but we'd better avoid it (since it would mean we had Belgrod just a few months ago when we still had ĺ --> o).

Probably. By the way, Polish has Beľgrad, not Białogród or something.

Quote:
 
I agree with iopq it's double standards to have rz --> ř for Polish, but и --> ы for Ukrainian. If we want etymology, we'll have Jerí Andřejevský and Julija Vlĺdimirovna Timošenko. If we agree etymology is tempting but highly unpractical, we'll have Ježí Andžejevský and Julіja Volodymyrivna Tymošenko. Nothing in between.

Yeah, but like I said, then you get the problem of a name like Trzebiatowski. Etymologically it would be something like Třebětovský, pronunciationwise it would be Tšebjatovský. Writing Tžebjatovski would be a strange mix.

Perhaps we need to consider a slightly different approach after all. Let's face it, all this is necessary only for one thing: automatic transliteration between Latin and Cyrillic, and all the above it looks like we have only two options, etymology and pronunciation. But there is also a third option, and I think we shouldn't immediately discard it: orthography.

In that case we need to worry only about the characters that are absent in Slovianski's orthography (like Polish Ł, Ó etc.), but not about SZ or RZ. So Rzeszów becomes Rzeszov, Łódź becomes Lodz (or Lodź in the case of NMS), Czech Dvořák becomes Dvořak, Croatian Mikulić becomes Mikulič (but Polish Buć becomes Buť), and Slovene Trbovlje remains Trbovlje, while Ljubljana either becomes Ľubľana or Ljubljana (depending on whether you treat LJ as a digraph or not). In Cyrillic, it means that Ukrainian И remains И, but Ukrainian І becomes И as well.

This goes of course only for the representation of Cyrillic names in Cyrillic text and Latin names in Latin texts. In all Cyrillic <> Latin cases, we'd still use normal transliteration schemes like Polish RZ > Ж and Cyrillic Њ > Ň.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Gabriel Svoboda

Regarding your proposal, I don't really like the selective keeping of characters that happen to be present in Slovianski orthography and throwing out others. Let's face it, the Slovianski orthography is still a bit random (the opposite would be a utopia anyway). It's not hard to imagine an alternative-history-Slovianski where soft r would still be ŕ instead of ř. Why Czech Dvořák should be Dvořak in current Slovianski, but Dvorak in this alternative-history-Slovianski? The established practice is to keep all diacritics, or at least as many as you can, and I think we should follow it too. Otherwise the original orthography indeed is one of the good options - at least in Standard Slovianski. Naučni Slovianski would lose its scientific charm if it weren't Cyrillic written with Latin letters.

Quote:
 
So how about names like Trzebiatowski, Krzaklewski? Does Cyrillic also use Ж here, even though the correct pronunciation would be Ш?


Russian seems to follow pronunciation here:

Польско-русская практическая транскрипция
Чешско-русская практическая транскрипция

Quote:
 
Yeah. Although oddly, Polish inflects names on -(en)ko as if they were feminine! Does anyone know how this is done in Belarussian?


Belarusian seems to support the Polish position here. Ukrainian, Czech-Slovak and Serbo-Croatian inflect it as a neuter noun (sometimes with masculine endings, due to the person's sex). Strangely enough, Russian agress with Bulgarian-Macedonian on not inflecting this name at all.

So, Lukašenka would not be completely out of Slavic, but it would probably surprise most Slavs anyway.

Quote:
 
I'm sure Bulgarian and Macedonian have a way of saying: "Are we going to visit the Tolstojs or the Brodskis tonight?"


Ah, that's right. Unfortunately, expressions of that kind are not usually found on Wikipedia. Can our Bulgarian or Macedonian friends help?

Quote:
 
That goes even for non-Slavic names like Andreotti (> Andreottiego) or Hurley (> Hurley'ego).


In Czech we use the tňj paradigm, which in practice means we don't use the first vowel of the adjectival ending: Goethe-go, Giovanni-mu, Andreotti-m, Hurley-m.

So, can we say names in -oj are declined as nouns, while names in -ij or -yj are declined as adjectives? What about names like Мирный?

Quote:
 
Interestingly, not all Polish names on -y automatically have their female forms on -a, though. I know for example about a certain Katarzyna Mokry (gen. > Katarzyny Mokry).


Heh, in Czech a female form can be formed for all surnames, either Czech or foreign (except for continental east Asian ones). For example Monica Lewinská, Angela Merkelová, Macuko Mawatariová. If I met Katarzyna Mokry, I would decline her name Katarzyny Mokrego - let her have what she wanted.
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Kozica
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In modern polish, surname gender form is quite optional. Some girl, calling themself for example Agata Kwaśniewski instead of Agata Kwaśniewska.

In old days, my wife would be called Pani Kozicowa, instead of modern Pani Kozica. If I would have a maiden daughter, she shoudl be called Panna Kozicówna.


In noble family of Sapiecha. Female are called Pani Sapieżyna (an I have no idea how its possible :p )
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Moraczewski
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"So Rzeszów becomes Rzeszov, Łódź becomes Lodz "
This will result that ordinary non-Polish Slovianski user will read these names as: R-zes-zov, Lod-z, which is incorrect both etymologically and phonetically. I see no reasons why Rzeszów can not become Řešov or even Rešov, and Łódź Loď
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Kozica
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Well, yes, but notice that in most major atlas maps, city names are rendered in their native language. You can put the pronunciation in parenthesis
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steeven
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Kozica
Feb 15 2011, 08:14 PM
In modern polish, surname gender form is quite optional. Some girl, calling themself for example Agata Kwaśniewski instead of Agata Kwaśniewska.
In old days, my wife would be called Pani Kozicowa, instead of modern Pani Kozica. If I would have a maiden daughter, she shoudl be called Panna Kozicówna.
In diasporal (sp?) Polish communities in US, the female forms are still used.
Thus my wife would be Pani Radzikowska (at all times).
I have found that many of the Polish language "old forms" are still used in US and Canada; perhaps because when the significant migrations occurred in the previous century, the language stopped changing - thereafter, only modestly making changes when new Polish speakers arrived.

Many Polish visitors here say that the "US Polish dialect" is what was spoken in Poland in the late 1800's / early 1900's.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
Trzebiatowski is not a problem
if it's phonetic, then just write Тшебятовски, that's what Russian and Ukrainian do

I find copying the exact spelling of the source language problematic because then we'll start writing things like Cisinau, Szeged, Gjirokaster

Пржевальский is probably one of the most difficult things to pronounce in Russian because it was a syllabic r! And yes, the ж is voiced
Edited by iopq, Feb 15 2011, 11:11 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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gossips
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IJzeren Jan
Feb 15 2011, 03:17 PM
Quote:
 
The Микола vs. Николай issue just shows that one east Slavic person will have two or even three names dependent on the source language, it is inevitable, no transliteration scheme can solve it.

That's true. But let's face it, changing Ukrainian Mykola to Russian Nikolaj or Polish Mikołaj is in fact translating the name. It's like English Henry vs. German Heinrich and Dutch Hendrik. The fact that Russian still has the habit of doing this to Ukrainian names is a leftover from the days when Ukrainian wasn't even considered anything but a regional variety of Russian, which - I hope - will disappear sooner or later.


http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Петро_I_Олексійович

=)
Edited by gossips, Feb 20 2011, 06:16 PM.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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Moraczewski
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Let's split the thread! It has no more common with using Google
Edited by Moraczewski, Feb 16 2011, 12:37 PM.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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iopq
Administrator
Jan does these things, I'm far too lazy
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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