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Using Google to read Slovianski aloud
Topic Started: Feb 12 2011, 07:47 PM (3,630 Views)
Gabriel Svoboda

I noticed Google Translate offers the possibility to read a given text aloud (using the Listen button, if the text containts 100 characters at the most). Nearly all Slavic languages are available, but most of them sound like a robot. Only three languages are available in a human-like quality: Russian, Polish, Czech. Just for curiosity, I have transliterated my recent Slovianska Gazeta post into these three languages and made an amateur recording of the result. Here it is:

http://www.box.net/shared/r80drnh3hs
(script: http://slp-gazeta.blogspot.com/2011/02/januar-fevruar-dvatysecnogo.html )

There are six pieces of news, accented in the following order: Czech, Russian, Polish, Polish, Czech, Russian.
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Kozica
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sounds good :)
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steeven
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The Russian version has a noticeable Russian accent.
The Polish version sounds like a Russian trying to speak Polish.
The Czech version - at least to my ear - sounds to be the "mildest" of accents - definitely not Russian nor Polish; but not quite what I hear when I hear Czech.
Nonetheless, overall I was quite impressed.
I did not know this was available at Google.
But then Google has been making many modifications.
I just read an article in a scientific magazine describing Google's experiments in creating a electronic chip that may be implanted into one's head (yes, a human head), which is intended to communicate with Google by thoughts alone. This is a "hard-copy" magazine, which may also be available online.
Fascinating!

Thank you GS!
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
you recorded using your speakers, lol

could have at least used your sound card's output
btw, let me critique your text:

Dvadesętý pętý should be Dvadesętpętý or actually Dva-desęt-pętý because that word hurts my eyes kind of like dvadesętiosmiletnňgo does

prėd dva godami v Belgradě is what? in front of two years? so does that mean two years ago or what? because in Russian впредь would mean "in the future" while назад would mean "in the past"

why are we writing Belarusian names phonetically? it's accepted practice to write them etymologically
damn right, I'm writing it Александр Лукашенко
and yes, it's going to be Ян Гус
Edited by iopq, Feb 13 2011, 08:02 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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wannabeme
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We can tell dvadeset peti or dvadeset i peti.

We should use predze dvema godami because pred is indeed used only for location.
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Gabriel Svoboda

Thanks for the comments!

"steeven"
 
I just read an article in a scientific magazine describing Google's experiments in creating a electronic chip that may be implanted into one's head (yes, a human head), which is intended to communicate with Google by thoughts alone.


It reminds me of this.

"iopq"
 
you recorded using your speakers, lol


I repent. :$ I've just downloaded an audio analogue of Print Screen, will use it next time.

Quote:
 
Dvadesętý pętý should be Dvadesętpętý or actually Dva-desęt-pętý


Ah, you are right:

east Slavic, Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian-Macedonian: dvadesęť pętý
west Slavic: dvadesętý pętý
Czech-Slovak, Slovenian: pęťidvadesętý (a German calque)

So yes, dvadesęť pętý has got 3,5 votes.

Quote:
 
that word hurts my eyes kind of like dvadesętiosmiletnňgo does


What do you propose instead for "28-year-old"?

Quote:
 
prėd dva godami v Belgradě is what? in front of two years? so does that mean two years ago or what?


That's a difficult issue to be studied in grammars, but if Google Translate should be reliable (a dirty assumption, I know), we would have "dva gody nazad" in Russian, "dva gody tňmu" in Ukrainian-Belarusian-Polish and "prėd dva godami" in the rest. So yes, the postpositional construction wins with three votes and tňmu beats nazad.

Yes, in Czech-Slovak (and I suppose in south Slavic languages too) prėd means "before", "ago" and "in front of" at the same time. "Two years ago" is viewed as a stupid English postpositional construction that must be learned even though "*before two years" would do just as "before lunch" does.

BTW, in "dva gody tňmu/nazad", in which case exactly "dva" is (or would be, if we declined numerals)?

Quote:
 
why are we writing Belarusian names phonetically? it's accepted practice to write them etymologically


I know it's tempting to transcribe Медведев etymologically as Medvěďev, or Beograd as Bělgrĺd, but it doesn't really work, as we discussed it here.

The only exception are endings, so that declension could be natural: Лукашэнка is still Lukašenko and Толстой is Tolstý (but not Tňlstý).
Edited by Gabriel Svoboda, Feb 13 2011, 03:13 PM.
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iopq
Administrator
but it's dva goda tomu (Russian puts a nazad after it as well) actually, because Google translate is retarded
Why doesn't Belgrad work? Polish has Belgrad, Belarusian has Białhrad, Russian and Ukrainian have Belgrad, Macedonian has Belgrad, Bulgarian has Belgrad, Slovak has Belehrad, Czech has Bělehrad

the ONLY language that I can see that uses the Serb name is Slovenian

there's no discussion in the link you gave that would make me think otherwise
Edited by iopq, Feb 13 2011, 11:09 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

The thing is, etymology of personal names in most cases is difficult to guess. That's why most Slavic languages tend to be consistent and give up etymology even when it happens to be easy to guess. Tolstoj is called Tolstoj in all Slavic languages, even in those having other reflex of ňl than ol. The Russian president's name in Polish is merely transliterated as Miedwiediew, even though the etymological translation would be Niedźwiedźów.

Of course, it only concerns names of modern people. No one advocates Beograd over Belgrad, I just advocate Belgrad over Bělgrĺd.

Quote:
 
but it's dva goda tomu (Russian puts a nazad after it as well) actually, because Google translate is retarded


Indeed, I've translated the Russian expression back to Slovianski (here etymology works :) ). Goda/gody is clearly in the brojna forma, I just ask in which case dva is, i. e. which case the tňmu/nazad postposition governs.
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iopq
Administrator
Well, actually it should probably be consistent because in SOME cases it is etymologized and in some cases it is not

so for example Андрій Шевченко is also known as Андрей Шевченко in a lot of languages like East Slavic and Serbian
but if we don't etymologize it then what happens is that once the name is converted you can't convert it back because the meaning of it is lost

Imagine we take the Ukrainian surname Кішка and write it Кишка
suddenly, a surname meaning "cat" means "intestine"

but Russian treats this case etymologically writes the correct Кошка
Edited by iopq, Feb 14 2011, 09:26 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

It is possible to transliterate it without any loss. In west Slavic languages Кішка is converted to Kiška, while Ukrainian Кишка is converted to Kyška.

Also, yes, given names tend to be more receptive to translation, since there is a limited set of them, contrary to the myriads of surnames. We could even have a Slovianski dictionary of given names (Aleksandňr, Vlĺdislav, Jakov, Jan, Luka, Amar, Lazař, Juří, Jelena, Anastasija, Darja, Julija, Tereza, Ema, Světlana, Petra, Amina, Milica, Marija, Viktorija, ...). Nevertheless given names are not usually translated except for monarchs etc.
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iopq
Administrator
But the Ukrainian Kішка can't be converted to Kишка in cyrillic, that changes the name to a different name
When we translate Kішка to Кишка we can say, ok, that's fine
but then by that logic Ukr. Кишка would be Кышка in Slovianski
by that logic Михайло would be Мыхайло
but if that person's passport says Михаил in Russian, then it would transliterate to Михаил

do you see how when Russian and Ukrainian keep the etymological link it would lead to confusion if we transliterate them differently?

That means if we're translating a Russian article a person's name is Андрей, but if we're translating a Ukrainian article it's Андрий
and it's still the same person
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

That's great, but in practical terms it means any east Slavic name should be transliterated from Russian. And the person's Russian name may be unknown, unless it is famous enough to have its own Wikipedia article with interlanguage links. This is how personal names differ from place names - the latter are usually well-documented in Wikipedia. Without Wikipedia I'm lost, since most certainly there is no universal transliteration key - Ukrainian і comes from o here and from ě there.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Although it's kind of tempting to follow etymology in the case of names as well, I think Gabriel is right and it's better to avoid it.

I think think of five categories of names:
1) first names
2) surnames
3) geographical names that have their own equivalent in many languages (like Belgrad)
4) geographical names that can (all or in part) be translated (like Bělo Moře, Karpatske Gory, Novy Jork)
5) other geographical names

Ad 1+2) I'm not in favour of "translating" first names either. Otherwise we'll end up with "Juři Kosinski", for example, and that wouldn't be a good idea. I don't mind writing Vladimir for a Russian, Volodymyr for a Ukrainian, Vlodiměř for a Pole, etc. I think we all agree that surnames should never be modified at all, just represented in a way that's closest to the actual pronunciation (although we definitely should NOT use Ž for Polish RZ). I don't have the slightest problem with writing Lukašenka.

Ad 3) Belgrad/Beograd is a good example. I think we can treat it as an ordinary word, i.e. apply the same mechanisms. So Moskva, Varšava, Praga, Bělgrĺd, etc. That's what we also do in the case of country names, after all.

Ad 4) If it's common that a name is translated, then there is no reason for not doing that.

Ad 5) In the remaining cases, we should follow the same procedure as with surnames, i.e. transliterate it as faithfully as possible.

I'm a bit in doubt about cases like Ľviv/Ľvov. I guess it would probably be best to use the Ukrainian name Ľviv, but then you get in trouble in other cases: it would be ridiculous to write Ľviva since even Ukrainian has Ľvova. Same goes for Polish Kraków [krakuf], gen. Krakowa. On the other hand, I don't see why the Ukrainian name Javorivśkyj should be written as Javorovski. So as a rule, I'd suggest we follow the pronunciation in the language of origin, except in cases when this would cause irregularity in declension. Or somesuch.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I'm not quite sure about a case like "Tolstoj", though. Tolsty wouldn't even be recognised by everybody, so that can hardly be the solution. OTOH, Tolstoja would look perfectly normal for a Pole, but probably strange to a Russian. But Tolstoj ~ Tolstogo would make it irregular.

Okay, it's not like we really NEED to have rules for this kind of things, we can easily leave it to the writer of speaker. But nevertheless some kind of guideline might be helpful.
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Feb 14 2011, 07:08 PM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
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Gabriel Svoboda
Feb 14 2011, 01:16 PM
That's great, but in practical terms it means any east Slavic name should be transliterated from Russian. And the person's Russian name may be unknown, unless it is famous enough to have its own Wikipedia article with interlanguage links. This is how personal names differ from place names - the latter are usually well-documented in Wikipedia. Without Wikipedia I'm lost, since most certainly there is no universal transliteration key - Ukrainian і comes from o here and from ě there.
that's no good, Микола would be always Николай?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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