| Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Using Google to read Slovianski aloud | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 12 2011, 07:47 PM (3,630 Views) | |
| Gabriel Svoboda | Feb 12 2011, 07:47 PM Post #1 |
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I noticed Google Translate offers the possibility to read a given text aloud (using the Listen button, if the text containts 100 characters at the most). Nearly all Slavic languages are available, but most of them sound like a robot. Only three languages are available in a human-like quality: Russian, Polish, Czech. Just for curiosity, I have transliterated my recent Slovianska Gazeta post into these three languages and made an amateur recording of the result. Here it is: http://www.box.net/shared/r80drnh3hs (script: http://slp-gazeta.blogspot.com/2011/02/januar-fevruar-dvatysecnogo.html ) There are six pieces of news, accented in the following order: Czech, Russian, Polish, Polish, Czech, Russian. |
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| Kozica | Feb 12 2011, 10:18 PM Post #2 |
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sounds good
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| steeven | Feb 13 2011, 04:29 AM Post #3 |
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The Russian version has a noticeable Russian accent. The Polish version sounds like a Russian trying to speak Polish. The Czech version - at least to my ear - sounds to be the "mildest" of accents - definitely not Russian nor Polish; but not quite what I hear when I hear Czech. Nonetheless, overall I was quite impressed. I did not know this was available at Google. But then Google has been making many modifications. I just read an article in a scientific magazine describing Google's experiments in creating a electronic chip that may be implanted into one's head (yes, a human head), which is intended to communicate with Google by thoughts alone. This is a "hard-copy" magazine, which may also be available online. Fascinating! Thank you GS! |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2011, 07:13 AM Post #4 |
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you recorded using your speakers, lol could have at least used your sound card's output btw, let me critique your text: Dvadesętý pętý should be Dvadesętpętý or actually Dva-desęt-pętý because that word hurts my eyes kind of like dvadesętiosmiletnňgo does prėd dva godami v Belgradě is what? in front of two years? so does that mean two years ago or what? because in Russian впредь would mean "in the future" while назад would mean "in the past" why are we writing Belarusian names phonetically? it's accepted practice to write them etymologically damn right, I'm writing it Александр Лукашенко and yes, it's going to be Ян Гус Edited by iopq, Feb 13 2011, 08:02 AM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Feb 13 2011, 09:08 AM Post #5 |
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We can tell dvadeset peti or dvadeset i peti. We should use predze dvema godami because pred is indeed used only for location. |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Feb 13 2011, 03:10 PM Post #6 |
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Thanks for the comments!
It reminds me of this.
I repent. I've just downloaded an audio analogue of Print Screen, will use it next time.
Ah, you are right: east Slavic, Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian-Macedonian: dvadesęť pętý west Slavic: dvadesętý pętý Czech-Slovak, Slovenian: pęťidvadesętý (a German calque) So yes, dvadesęť pętý has got 3,5 votes.
What do you propose instead for "28-year-old"?
That's a difficult issue to be studied in grammars, but if Google Translate should be reliable (a dirty assumption, I know), we would have "dva gody nazad" in Russian, "dva gody tňmu" in Ukrainian-Belarusian-Polish and "prėd dva godami" in the rest. So yes, the postpositional construction wins with three votes and tňmu beats nazad. Yes, in Czech-Slovak (and I suppose in south Slavic languages too) prėd means "before", "ago" and "in front of" at the same time. "Two years ago" is viewed as a stupid English postpositional construction that must be learned even though "*before two years" would do just as "before lunch" does. BTW, in "dva gody tňmu/nazad", in which case exactly "dva" is (or would be, if we declined numerals)?
I know it's tempting to transcribe Медведев etymologically as Medvěďev, or Beograd as Bělgrĺd, but it doesn't really work, as we discussed it here. The only exception are endings, so that declension could be natural: Лукашэнка is still Lukašenko and Толстой is Tolstý (but not Tňlstý). Edited by Gabriel Svoboda, Feb 13 2011, 03:13 PM.
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| iopq | Feb 13 2011, 11:06 PM Post #7 |
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but it's dva goda tomu (Russian puts a nazad after it as well) actually, because Google translate is retarded Why doesn't Belgrad work? Polish has Belgrad, Belarusian has Białhrad, Russian and Ukrainian have Belgrad, Macedonian has Belgrad, Bulgarian has Belgrad, Slovak has Belehrad, Czech has Bělehrad the ONLY language that I can see that uses the Serb name is Slovenian there's no discussion in the link you gave that would make me think otherwise Edited by iopq, Feb 13 2011, 11:09 PM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Feb 14 2011, 08:29 AM Post #8 |
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The thing is, etymology of personal names in most cases is difficult to guess. That's why most Slavic languages tend to be consistent and give up etymology even when it happens to be easy to guess. Tolstoj is called Tolstoj in all Slavic languages, even in those having other reflex of ňl than ol. The Russian president's name in Polish is merely transliterated as Miedwiediew, even though the etymological translation would be Niedźwiedźów. Of course, it only concerns names of modern people. No one advocates Beograd over Belgrad, I just advocate Belgrad over Bělgrĺd.
Indeed, I've translated the Russian expression back to Slovianski (here etymology works ). Goda/gody is clearly in the brojna forma, I just ask in which case dva is, i. e. which case the tňmu/nazad postposition governs.
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| iopq | Feb 14 2011, 09:16 AM Post #9 |
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Well, actually it should probably be consistent because in SOME cases it is etymologized and in some cases it is not so for example Андрій Шевченко is also known as Андрей Шевченко in a lot of languages like East Slavic and Serbian but if we don't etymologize it then what happens is that once the name is converted you can't convert it back because the meaning of it is lost Imagine we take the Ukrainian surname Кішка and write it Кишка suddenly, a surname meaning "cat" means "intestine" but Russian treats this case etymologically writes the correct Кошка Edited by iopq, Feb 14 2011, 09:26 AM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Feb 14 2011, 11:54 AM Post #10 |
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It is possible to transliterate it without any loss. In west Slavic languages Кішка is converted to Kiška, while Ukrainian Кишка is converted to Kyška. Also, yes, given names tend to be more receptive to translation, since there is a limited set of them, contrary to the myriads of surnames. We could even have a Slovianski dictionary of given names (Aleksandňr, Vlĺdislav, Jakov, Jan, Luka, Amar, Lazař, Juří, Jelena, Anastasija, Darja, Julija, Tereza, Ema, Světlana, Petra, Amina, Milica, Marija, Viktorija, ...). Nevertheless given names are not usually translated except for monarchs etc. |
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| iopq | Feb 14 2011, 12:31 PM Post #11 |
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But the Ukrainian Kішка can't be converted to Kишка in cyrillic, that changes the name to a different name When we translate Kішка to Кишка we can say, ok, that's fine but then by that logic Ukr. Кишка would be Кышка in Slovianski by that logic Михайло would be Мыхайло but if that person's passport says Михаил in Russian, then it would transliterate to Михаил do you see how when Russian and Ukrainian keep the etymological link it would lead to confusion if we transliterate them differently? That means if we're translating a Russian article a person's name is Андрей, but if we're translating a Ukrainian article it's Андрий and it's still the same person |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Feb 14 2011, 01:16 PM Post #12 |
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That's great, but in practical terms it means any east Slavic name should be transliterated from Russian. And the person's Russian name may be unknown, unless it is famous enough to have its own Wikipedia article with interlanguage links. This is how personal names differ from place names - the latter are usually well-documented in Wikipedia. Without Wikipedia I'm lost, since most certainly there is no universal transliteration key - Ukrainian і comes from o here and from ě there. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 14 2011, 06:15 PM Post #13 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Although it's kind of tempting to follow etymology in the case of names as well, I think Gabriel is right and it's better to avoid it. I think think of five categories of names: 1) first names 2) surnames 3) geographical names that have their own equivalent in many languages (like Belgrad) 4) geographical names that can (all or in part) be translated (like Bělo Moře, Karpatske Gory, Novy Jork) 5) other geographical names Ad 1+2) I'm not in favour of "translating" first names either. Otherwise we'll end up with "Juři Kosinski", for example, and that wouldn't be a good idea. I don't mind writing Vladimir for a Russian, Volodymyr for a Ukrainian, Vlodiměř for a Pole, etc. I think we all agree that surnames should never be modified at all, just represented in a way that's closest to the actual pronunciation (although we definitely should NOT use Ž for Polish RZ). I don't have the slightest problem with writing Lukašenka. Ad 3) Belgrad/Beograd is a good example. I think we can treat it as an ordinary word, i.e. apply the same mechanisms. So Moskva, Varšava, Praga, Bělgrĺd, etc. That's what we also do in the case of country names, after all. Ad 4) If it's common that a name is translated, then there is no reason for not doing that. Ad 5) In the remaining cases, we should follow the same procedure as with surnames, i.e. transliterate it as faithfully as possible. I'm a bit in doubt about cases like Ľviv/Ľvov. I guess it would probably be best to use the Ukrainian name Ľviv, but then you get in trouble in other cases: it would be ridiculous to write Ľviva since even Ukrainian has Ľvova. Same goes for Polish Kraków [krakuf], gen. Krakowa. On the other hand, I don't see why the Ukrainian name Javorivśkyj should be written as Javorovski. So as a rule, I'd suggest we follow the pronunciation in the language of origin, except in cases when this would cause irregularity in declension. Or somesuch. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 14 2011, 07:07 PM Post #14 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I'm not quite sure about a case like "Tolstoj", though. Tolsty wouldn't even be recognised by everybody, so that can hardly be the solution. OTOH, Tolstoja would look perfectly normal for a Pole, but probably strange to a Russian. But Tolstoj ~ Tolstogo would make it irregular. Okay, it's not like we really NEED to have rules for this kind of things, we can easily leave it to the writer of speaker. But nevertheless some kind of guideline might be helpful. Edited by IJzeren Jan, Feb 14 2011, 07:08 PM.
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 14 2011, 09:08 PM Post #15 |
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that's no good, Микола would be always Николай? |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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I've just downloaded an audio analogue of Print Screen, will use it next time.
2:17 PM Jul 11