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| Whistle (and crayfish); svist-, pisk-, gvizd-? (and rak) | |
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| Topic Started: Dec 9 2010, 02:53 PM (979 Views) | |
| pne | Dec 9 2010, 02:53 PM Post #1 |
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How would one say "whistle" in Slovianski? Here are some words I've found: RU - svistat', svistet', svistnut' UK - svystity BE - svistac' PL - (za)gwizdać, świstać CZ - (za)hvízdat / hvízdnutí / (za)hvízdnout, pískat / písknutí / (vy)písknout, svištět, pištět, sípat, štípnout, šlohnout, fičet, fučet, chlípět, houkat SK - (za)pískať, (za)hvízdať SL - (za/po)žvižgati, piskati, vršeti, šumeti HR - hujiti, (pro)hujati, fićukati, fićuknuti, fućkati, fijukati, (i)zviždati, zviždukati, zvižduknuti, zviznuti, siktati, pištati BG - (pod/iz/o)svir(k)vam, svirja, s`skam; svistja, pištja MK - (i)sviri, pišti, šišti The west seems to favour gvizd-, and both west and south have pisk-/pišt-, but svist- seems to be most common (ru uk-be pl bg = 4 [3.5] votes - also cz sl-hr = 6 [4.67] votes if you count svišt-/žvižg-/zvižd-). I'm not sure what ending would be best: -atě -etě -itě -nųtě. (or maybe -nųtě along with -[aei]tě depending on whether it happens once or continuously?) -atě seems to be most common, though. So: svistatě/svistnųtě? I'm asking because of an idiom that was asked about on LiveJournal: how to say “when pigs fly”. Someone there pointed to this list on Omniglot which lists “Когда рак на горе свистнет” for RU and “коли рак на горі свисне” for UK: both “when the crayfish whistles on a mountain” And since “crayfish” is “rak” in ru-be-pl-cz-sk-sl-sr-hr-mk-bg, I presume it’s pretty certain to be the Slovianski word as well. So, would we say “Kňgda rak na gorě svistne”? [ćčч] Edited by pne, Dec 9 2010, 02:54 PM.
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| steeven | Dec 9 2010, 03:47 PM Post #2 |
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svistati svistnuti svistalka? - a whistle svistnulka? - a whistle svist? - a whistle svistanje? - a whistle / whistling svistnenje? - a whistle / whistling Welcome! Dobrodošli PNA! |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com dict.INTERSLAVIC.com | |
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| steeven | Dec 9 2010, 04:00 PM Post #3 |
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A link in the LiveJournal site that PNA referenced, offers these additional idiomatics: Croatian/Bosnian/Serbian Kad na vrbi rodi grožđe - Кад на врби роди грождже When grapes rippen on the willow Na sveto nigdarjevo On St. Nobody's day Bulgarian На куково лято In a cuckoo summer Czech Až naprší a uschne After it rains and dries Až na svatého Dyndy / Na svatého Dyndy On the St. Elsewhen's day 'Dyndy' is a non-existent name in Czech, rhyming with the Czech word 'jindy', meaning some other time. Dutch (for Jan  )Wanneer Pasen en Pinksteren op één dag vallen When Easter and Whitsun fall on the same day Met sint-juttemis With St. Juttemis German (for our Slavic brothers living in German-speaking countries) Wenn Ostern und Pfingsten auf einen Tag fallen When Easter and Whistun fall on the same day Am Sankt Nimmerleinstag / an Sankt Nimmerlein On Saint Never's day / on Saint Never Wenn die Hölle zufriert When Hell freezes over Wenn es im Sommer schneit When it snows in summer Hungarian (for Michal) Majd ha piros hó esik When it's snowing red snowflakes Majd ha cigánygyerekek potyognak az égből When gipsy children are streaming from the sky Majd ha a pokol befagy When Hell freezes over Macedonian Кога врбата ќе роди грозје When grapes will grow on willows На куково лето In the year of the cuckoo Polish Na Święty Nigdy on Saint Never's Day Kiedy mi kaktus na ręku wyrośnie When the cactus will grow on my hand Russian Когда рак на горе свистнет When the crayfish on the hill whistles Slovenian Ob svetem nikoli On Saint Never's Day Ukrainian коли рак на горі свисне when the crayfish whistles on the hill whistles коли воша пчихне when a louse will sneeze Edited by steeven, Dec 9 2010, 04:02 PM.
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com dict.INTERSLAVIC.com | |
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| wannabeme | Dec 9 2010, 04:13 PM Post #4 |
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Kada sviňa poleti
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| IJzeren Jan | Dec 9 2010, 04:13 PM Post #5 |
Jan van Steenbergen
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Absolutely right! Turns out that Common Slavic actually had two (related) words: gvizd- and svist-. Since in most language gv' > zv' anyway, the difference is pretty small. FYI piskati / piščeti means something more like "to peep", "to squeal". In Polish (and not only) a young bird is a "pisklę". It can also be used in connection witha flute, which would explain that it got such meaning in some languages, too. But I think svistati/svistnųti is what you're looking for.
Basically yes. The only thing is, it's better to avoid using the present tense form of a perfective verb. In the Northern languages, it means future tense, in Southern... hmm, something different (I can't really figure it out). So while your sentence is absolutely understandable in this case, I think it's better to write "svista", "svistnųl", "zasvista" or something. BTW, we already know each other, don't we? Welcome, Philip! [ćčч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Dec 9 2010, 04:22 PM Post #6 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Hehehe, good stuff!  So I guess another good solution for us would be: jako bųde dčň svętňgo nikňgdy... BTW,
An expression commonly used in the family of my inlaws is this one: jak wrócę z Radomia as the typical answer when someone asks you to do someting you don't want or intend to do: - Will you do me this little favour? - Of course, when I'll be back from Radom! - When are you going there? - I'm not planning to go there at all! [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Dec 9 2010, 04:32 PM Post #7 |
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What are your suggestions for the nouns? whistle - an instrument that you hold to your lips/mouth and blow through, which thens creates a whistle? whistle - the actual sound produced? whistling - the act of producing the sound?  |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com dict.INTERSLAVIC.com | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Dec 9 2010, 05:32 PM Post #8 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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1. svistok 2. svist 3. svistanje |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Dec 9 2010, 05:43 PM Post #9 |
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Jan, its not that we dont understand the present of perfective forms. We do undestand it but we only use it as a "conjunctive present or conjunctive future two which is the same as southslavic "bude + -l, la, lo participle". Kada svinja poleti = koda svija bude poletila We cannot say kada svinja će poleteti. This is impossible. So present of perfective verbs can be used (in Southslavic region) only as conjunctive, thus with words da ... that kada .... when ako .... if etc. Northern Slavs can use present of pf. verbs also without such words f.i. "Ja prijdem" but Southslavic "ja prijdem = ja (h)ću prijti. If you say "jesli ja prijdem" than it will be the same by Southslavs "ako ja prijdem" and not "ako ću ja prijti" because the last is not possible to say as well as in English. When I come - kada ja prijdem And I dont understand do you cansider "kogda ja prijdem" as future as well or as present conjunctive like we do. |
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| wannabeme | Dec 9 2010, 05:47 PM Post #10 |
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BCS zviždati zvužduk zviždaľka zviždaňje pištati pištak pišta or pištaľka pištaňje That fijukati is not really standard, more a jargone and used only for wind. větar fijuče Edited by wannabeme, Dec 9 2010, 05:49 PM.
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| steeven | Dec 9 2010, 06:00 PM Post #11 |
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Ah! Welcome to my world. For so long I have been bombarded with ~similar~ commentary from my SR/HR kolegi; but...thank you Drazen for putting it in better perspective. SR/HR have so many unique elements. And I STILL do not understand relationship of PERFECTIVE to IMPERFECTIVE in SR/HR. In fact, it doesn't really exist, does it? Which better explains the earlier charts........!
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com dict.INTERSLAVIC.com | |
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| wannabeme | Dec 9 2010, 09:50 PM Post #12 |
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It does really exist Steevenin, indeed it is shown the best way on aorist and imperfect. Aorist is simple past of perfective verbs, and imperfect of imerfective ones. The major problem that I have a different point of view of slavic aspect that you do. You have learnt it in your school, from your teacher. You have read in a book of a very famous slavist or linguist. Me not. I dont have any diploma or degree from some university because untill this year I have been still in secondary school. And as you know there they never come to that thema or so. Grammar of your own language is taboo in the school. And those comunistic village teacher dont know to much neither. Once in the 7th grade I have made some stupid thing, namely I beat up some stupid rich older kids which were I beat some older kids because they jeered me because I stuttered a little bit in that time. And for the punishment I was sent to work in a library. And it was so borring that I started to look in some old closets and drawers. And there I found an old book of churchslavonic in the library of the school. That was Serbian Churchslavonic "Dušans code". And it it was so interesting because I never saw such thing or new what language that was. I stayed for hours after school to read it every day and to compare it with modern Serbian. It was really hard to understand those symbols like ѣ я ю and such words as "uže, že, daže, kromě" because at that time I never met any other slavic language except Croatian. So for a year or so I only compared Old Serbian and Serbian words, forms and so I understood that there is some kind of design, of pattern how both languages are constructed. I stole that book when noone was there but nobody have noticed it because that book was old and covered with dust. I studied it for a long time and only later in the secondary school I learnt that those patterns are called declensions and conjugations and casi etc. on the class of Latin. And only about 2 years ago I moved to Germany and got internet and so I came in contact with other slavic languages and could have a look in them. So the trick is that I have my own point of view and understanding of the slavic aspects through my own experience from what I have researched and from what I have found. And you only believe to what you read what some other well known professors think and they all think and write the same thing because they are influenced from eachother. The same with many persons here. Only saying to me, that prof. said so, this prof. wrote that. I dont care for that. I know what I found out by my studing only one book for a very long period. And what I found it is that my language, which is slavic, and after my feeling of it, there is not one kind of aspects perfective and imperfective but many many aspects. That why proffesors never explained it complete but only partialy saying that it is a forest of irregularity. Though regularity is there. You only must see it and feel it. Slavic verbs are such: 1)The root gives you the thought of the epitome. 2)Endings gives you the thought of who and when (person and tense). 3)Special vowels which are common for a kind of verbs and are hanged on the root changing it partialy because of palatalizations and those vowels give you a thought and a feeling if the "action of the epitome" is an action (constant, continuous line) or a point (the whole action is seen like a point). 4) Prefixes od-, do-, pri- pred-, prez-, v-, iz- etc. gives you the thought, the feeling of interaction of the "action of the epitome" with other objects. Now I am going to ask you to be conraintuitive, thus to ignore you previous knowing about the aspcets that you learned in the school but only to concentrate on understanding this. OK f.i. vezti is an abstract, allover, general term which contains of 1) and 2) 3) and 4) are absent so by all logic of a human objective thinking this term has no quality of aspect ar interaction. Thus it has no aspect at all. If this term "vez(1)ti(2)" is extended, updated with 3) we get voz(1)i(3)ti(2). So voziti was updated with the quality of "constatly doing" by the "epitome". Is this aspect, I am asking you? What is aspect? You see it from an other point of view. This, let me call it, Number 3) quality can be compared with the a human eye, space and the Earth. One quality is : You are in the space and you see the Earth as a general planet. You see it whole like a point. It is sorrounded by other such round planets but you only want to focus on that one, namely the Earth. The other quality is: You are on the Earth, you dont see it like a whole, but like you see only a part of it constantely and endless view. You dont pay attention to the Earth as a ball but as an endless plate. Please, now be able to transsubstantiate those qualities to slavic verbs. Now let us extend our verb with a next quality. Naimly, 4) which is prefix. And allow to are epitome to interract with other objects sorrounding it. F.e. pre-, a very good known prefix and preposition in the whole indoeuropean branch meaning trans-. pre(4)vez(1)ti(2) and pre(4)voz(1)i(3)ti(2) This term is possible only if you are having or at least thinking, imagiing some object like bridge or two anything else which has two sides. Thus option of the quality (4) has nothing to do with aspects but with interracting of the subject with an object. But we have prepositions with many many meanings of interaction. For place, as well as for time. Those for place shows us, gives us the feeling, the information, the thought of, the experiencing of the correlation of the subject doing the action that our root of the verb describes to an object or the interaction of those two. Logicly thinking we use verbs of motion or stativeness with prepositions of place. Those for time convey the information about the placement of the subject correlating the object in the time. Thus this time pre- will carry the meanng that the subject is "processing" timely before the object, thus preceding. Or po-, za-, do-, na- or such will be denoting postprocessing of the subject in correlation to the object. To long for expaination. Visit verbal prefixes for more. So you think that pisati and zapisati is a pair. I say, noooo waaaay. Because they are pisati is general and zapisati - zapisivati is a pair. And why we need to have these epairs at all? So I dont agree to such theory where the quality of duration (3) and quality of interation in the time(4) are not researched at all and totaly missunderstood because of the human effeteness and failing to understand and differ two similar but totaly different qualities. Duration & Temporal Interaction delati & izdelati cannot make an aspectual pair because those two words have not the same kind of qualities. You cannot mix, multiple or devide lemons and orange. They are similar on the first look, but the way you feel them when you have it in your mouth is completely different. I hope that at least some of you will not be so ignorant not to read this and not trying to understand. If you see any failiour of my explainations please be kind and discuss it with me. But you dont need to quote me some great great slavists telling me how well-known their theories are. I dont care because I am little chauvinist and dont trust or believe to anybody and to anyhting untill I prove it myself No, but, serously, dont allow to yourself to be influenced so easy from anybody. I call it naiveness. Sorry if not in the right thread, you can also copy this to whatever thread you think it should belong to. Edited by wannabeme, Dec 9 2010, 10:11 PM.
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| iopq | Dec 9 2010, 10:25 PM Post #13 |
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Administrator
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not understandable jak verbenki rodi se na grozd'i is much better imo Edited by iopq, Dec 9 2010, 10:35 PM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Dec 9 2010, 11:00 PM Post #14 |
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No, no, no iopg! You didnt understand it. It is "kogda verba rodi grozdje" or "kogda grozdje rodi sę na verby" or "kogda verba procvěta grozdjem" |
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| iopq | Dec 9 2010, 11:09 PM Post #15 |
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Administrator
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oh, the opposite, lol |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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