Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti.
Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности.
Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit.

Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno.

Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community!
Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti:
Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности:
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Flavourisation; Northern vs. Southern Slovianski
Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 12:16 PM (5,248 Views)
iopq
Administrator
wannabeme
Dec 11 2010, 07:01 PM
I ask him because I want him to teach me to pronounce that R. I simply dont know how.
any time I try to do a uvular or velar tril it comes out as a mix of a velar or uvular fricative and trill, I can't do it as clearly

and not nearly as slowly

I don't hear it as a uvular trill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uvular_trill
to say it as slowly is not possible for me, I think it's just a regular alveolar trill or maybe like a weird post-alveolar trill
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 


I've read this thread, but you always spoke about using elements from Naučný Slovjanský and concluded that "novi" is a simplification of "novy" in the same way as "delati" is a simplification of "dělati". So, I thought we are talking about elements of Naučni Slovianski (which, naturally, can be used in Standard Slovianski without limitation), not about Standard Slovianski itself.

Quote:
 
As a rule, I think the orthography of Standard Slovianski should be as inclusive as possible


Oh, why? We already have a completely inclusive orthography, namely the one of Naučni Slovianski. But you'll have to agree it is a hell to write it; well, for linguists it's not a hell but a pleasure, but we can't expect people to feel it the same as we do. Ergo, in my opinion, the orthography Standard Slovianski should be as exclusive as possible: it should contain only the most basic inventory of elements, which people must be FORCED to use, i. e. the ones without which they would not use Slavic at all. (These are i, ľ, ň and perhaps ť, but not y, ď, ř, ś, ź.) And then they can admix any elements of Naučni Slovianski they like - there is no need to specifically mention y in the description of Standard Slovianski, as long as there is not mentioned ě, ź etc. There should just be a general link to the description of Naučni Slovianski.

In short, I don't see a point in having one completely inclusive orthography and one nearly inclusive orthography, if we can have an inclusive one and an exclusive one, and let people mix them freely.

Quote:
 
Likewise, you can turn all y's in a document into i, and you get a valid document.


That's great, but is a document invalid if it contains only i? Naturally not, so y should not be a mandatory part of Standard Slovianski (again, not more mandatory than ě, ź etc.).

Quote:
 
So Standard Slovianski should be as precise as possible, and basically include everything that can be represented in Cyrillic without resorting to ҍ, ѧ and the like


Why ҍ, ѧ are restorts, but for example ы is not? For a south Slav all look equally foreign.

Quote:
 
Y is supported by 3.5 votes (and a vast majority of the speakers).


Indeed, but wasn't it the Standard Slovianski principle that we use simpler solutions even if they are supported by a minority (unless such a minority is really small, such as the absence of declension)? For difficult majority solutions we already have Naučni Slovianski.

Quote:
 
Also, it's weird to have lots of soft consonants and no y; that's another example of a "package deal".


Indeed. So let's have 2-3 soft consonants with i in Standard Slovianski, and 7 soft consonants with i/y in Naučni Slovianski.

Quote:
 
In the case of TraT/TroT it's different: you cannot treat one as a simplification of the other.


That's exactly the point, the above mentioned principle of simpler solutions doesn't apply here. So we should just use the majority solution; the simplicity criterion being unavailable in this case, using a non-majority solution would be biased.

Quote:
 
Besides, I noticed that most Russians here on the forum prefer TraT as well. Which doesn't even surprise me, since Russian is full with -oro-/-ra- doublets.


And Ukrainian/Belarusian is also full of -oro-/-ra- doublets? How can a Ukrainian/Belarusian know krava is related to his korova? With krova he would have a chance to guess it.

Quote:
 
Interslavic should be there for all Slavs, not only for part of them. So yes, half-way between East, South and West, that's exactly where Slovianski should be IMO.


Yes, a half-way between East, South and West, not a half-way between North and South, since in any case the North is at least twice as heavier than the South.

Quote:
 
Because practically all other solutions are already Northern-based, I thought in this particular case we might settle the score a bit.


And that's the crucial point of disagreement. Without any doubt every indididual feature by itself should be well-balanced between East, West and South. But you say: if the result doesn't happen to be southern enough, we should randomly take another feature and instead of balancing it between East, West and South too, we should southernise it. But you fail to say according to which objective criteria you divide features into

1) those which should be balanced objectively, and
2) those which should be southern-flavoured.

---

About syllabic liquids: Thanks for the subsequent discussion, it has shown the argument about trg, smrť being difficult to pronounce and understand was moot. We should therefore use trg, smrť.

Mǝrtvy, pǝlny, pǝs, dostatǝk, dobrǝgo, obǝjdti, etc. look good too, but we would have to spell it this way also in Standard Slovianski, which - however - would fail to be easy to type, then.

---

About uvular r: It is pronounced in the same place in the mouth as k, g (well, these are velars not uvulars, but velar trill doesn't probably even exist anyway). The manner of articulation is difficult to explain, you have to try.

This speech defect was practised by former Czech president Václav Havel, and by me until about five years ago, when I learned alveolar trill by studying the table of consonants. Interestingly, I have never had any problem with raised alveolar trill (Czech ř), so I had pronounced r and ř at the opposite sides of the mouth. Most Czech rhotacists can't pronounce ř either.

Just for fun, a song from the Czech fairy tale About the Rhotacist Princess (O princezně, která ráčkovala): http://www.karaoketexty.cz/texty-pisni/censky-jan/kralovske-reggae-32155 (The knight at the end doesn't pronounce uvular r though, just a long-sustained alveolar trill.)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Eugeniusx
Member Avatar

Gabriel: About uvular r: It is pronounced in the same place in the mouth as k, g (well, these are velars not uvulars, but velar trill doesn't probably even exist anyway).
===
Ja ne soglosijm so Te. Francju i Nemcju "r" bu izgvorit so uvula.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

Quote:
 
Why ҍ, ѧ are restorts, but for example ы is not? For a south Slav all look equally foreign.

Because they are not included in any modern orthography and Unicode.

Quote:
 
Indeed. So let's have 2-3 soft consonants with i in Standard Slovianski, and 7 soft consonants with i/y in Naučni Slovianski.

This would be fair enough to Southern Slavs which otherwise will have problems with writing Standard Slovianski.

Quote:
 
And Ukrainian/Belarusian is also full of -oro-/-ra- doublets? How can a Ukrainian/Belarusian know krava is related to his korova? With krova he would have a chance to guess it.

Regardless of politic questions, all or majority Ukrainians and Belarusians know Russian well enough. And krava will be equal problem for Russians and Ukrainians/Belarussians.

"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel Svoboda
Dec 12 2010, 09:37 AM
I've read this thread, but you always spoke about using elements from Naučný Slovjanský and concluded that "novi" is a simplification of "novy" in the same way as "delati" is a simplification of "dělati". So, I thought we are talking about elements of Naučni Slovianski (which, naturally, can be used in Standard Slovianski without limitation), not about Standard Slovianski itself.
Can you please tell me what in your opinion "Standard Slovianski" is?

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
As a rule, I think the orthography of Standard Slovianski should be as inclusive as possible

Oh, why? We already have a completely inclusive orthography, namely the one of Naučni Slovianski. But you'll have to agree it is a hell to write it; well, for linguists it's not a hell but a pleasure, but we can't expect people to feel it the same as we do. Ergo, in my opinion, the orthography Standard Slovianski should be as exclusive as possible: it should contain only the most basic inventory of elements, which people must be FORCED to use, i. e. the ones without which they would not use Slavic at all. (These are i, ľ, ň and perhaps ť, but not y, ď, ř, ś, ź.) And then they can admix any elements of Naučni Slovianski they like - there is no need to specifically mention y in the description of Standard Slovianski, as long as there is not mentioned ě, ź etc. There should just be a general link to the description of Naučni Slovianski.

Naučny Medžuslovjanski is a completely different can of worms. It includes lots of stuff that REALLY shouldn't be used in any communicative text. That's why I have also been thinking about Slovianski-Plus. IMO it should include elements from NMS that really help in making things more understandable for some without making it less understandable for others, as well as stuff that really gives a better approximation of the right pronunciation. But it should not stuff that is only interesting for linguists or computer programs. Basically, a text written in it should not look like Vietnamese.

Slovianski-Plus should definitely include ě ę ĺ ś ź, and probably only those. Possibly ų, too. I'd say ň č are helpful only in cases like mčrtvy, but in cases like dobrňgo I'd rather avoid them. Stuff like ć ě ý í ę etc. doesn't really add anything of value and just makes the result look fuzzy. For example, dobrý dčň is by no means more understandable for anybody than dobry deň.

Quote:
 
In short, I don't see a point in having one completely inclusive orthography and one nearly inclusive orthography, if we can have an inclusive one and an exclusive one, and let people mix them freely.

That's great, but is a document invalid if it contains only i? Naturally not, so y should not be a mandatory part of Standard Slovianski (again, not more mandatory than ě, ź etc.).

I rather try to avoid words like "mandatory", "obligatory", "forbidden" etc. Slovianski is not a traditional language like Russian or Polish or Esperanto. In natlangs the rules are dictated by native speakers. So when you're talking/writing in a way that is different from what native speakers do, you can call it "wrong" or "a mistake". In the case of Slovianski, you can take two approaches: either it is a natlang with 300 million native speakers (84% of whom use "y"), or it is a conlang with 0 native speakers. Assuming the latter, we've chosen to be generous with "rules" and all that. Slovianski is not a closed system, but rather a toolbox.

For the rest, what this language really looks like should depend on many things: what a user's native language is, what kind of keyboard he uses, how well he actually knows Slovianski, what his target audience is and through what kind of media he's addressing it. There is also the ever recurring issue of understandability vs. simplicity. Well, we have chosen to focus on maximising understandability. And that means an inclusive approach.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Y is supported by 3.5 votes (and a vast majority of the speakers).
Also, it's weird to have lots of soft consonants and no y; that's another example of a "package deal".

Indeed, but wasn't it the Standard Slovianski principle that we use simpler solutions even if they are supported by a minority (unless such a minority is really small, such as the absence of declension)? For difficult majority solutions we already have Naučni Slovianski.

Indeed. So let's have 2-3 soft consonants with i in Standard Slovianski, and 7 soft consonants with i/y in Naučni Slovianski.

That is, only if you presuppose that we concentrate on simplicity. If so, then we should take the example of Slovene: no i, only three soft consonants (lj nj rj - but the latter is not really needed), ekavian (ě > e), ę > e, tj > č, syllabic r, -ol- instead of syllabic L, and only e as a universal filler vowel. The only differences would be ų > u (instead of o and dj > dž (instead of j). Fine, great solution! But there's one problem with it: it excludes the possibility of pronouncing e like je.

Besides, mind you, it was not me who introduced all these soft consonants into Slovianski. That was done during my one year's absence. Yes, Slovianski anno 2010 is something quite different from Slovianski anno 2006. Not that I regret it: it's much easier to simplify a richer system than vice versa. Most people seem to like it better this way.

But well, we have been talking about these things for nearly five years now and we can keep talking about them for another five years, but it won't change anything. Some people prefer this, others prefer that. Usually, decisions here are based on consensus, but as we know by now, there will always be people who'd prefer another solution. This was already a problem when there were only three or four of us, but now that there are over twenty active participants on this forum, it becomes even harder to find a solution that suits all.

Quote:
 
And Ukrainian/Belarusian is also full of -oro-/-ra- doublets? How can a Ukrainian/Belarusian know krava is related to his korova? With krova he would have a chance to guess it.

How many Ukrainians and Belarussians are there who do NOT know Russian? And tell me, is "krava" really THAT hard for a person who has "korova"? Mind, you can argue that TraT/TlaT is not the majority solution. But calling TroT/TloT the majority solution requires quite a lot of subjectivity as well (like: Russian and Belarussian support ONLY TroT; in cases of 50/50 Russian decides, etc.)

Quote:
 
And that's the crucial point of disagreement. Without any doubt every indididual feature by itself should be well-balanced between East, West and South. But you say: if the result doesn't happen to be southern enough, we should randomly take another feature and instead of balancing it between East, West and South too, we should southernise it. But you fail to say according to which objective criteria you divide features into

1) those which should be balanced objectively, and
2) those which should be southern-flavoured.


You know, this whole discussions sometimes reminds me of the political system of the United Kingdom. Because what happens in the average electoral district?
- Conservatives 30-35%
- Labour 30-35%
- Liberals 25-30%
Because a district can send only one representive, the House of Commons after elections usually looks like this:
- Conservatives 40-55%
- Labour 40-55%
- Liberals 5-10%

Now replace "Liberals" by "South Slavs" and you'll have an idea what I am talking about here!

Quote:
 
About syllabic liquids: Thanks for the subsequent discussion, it has shown the argument about trg, smrť being difficult to pronounce and understand was moot. We should therefore use trg, smrť.

Great!

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

I don't understand two things.
1. What is "universal filler vowel"? I always thought there are only reflexes of hard and soft yers that became "mobile vowels".
Does Slovene have really only "e" for all yers?
2. Why must we have "e" allowed as "je"?
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
1) That's the same thing, basically. Strong jers. In the Western languages (West Slavic + SL + SH) they merge, in the Eastern languages (East Slavic + MK + BG) they don't. We follow the Eastern model, which is not the easiest one.

2) We must, because we also merge ě and ę into it. In those cases there is a clear majority for "je". Sure, we can suppose ekavian, and that would definitely be the solution if we simplify things a lot. But not if we want to follow the majority principle consistently.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

No, if we decide to really merge ě ę and ь into one e, it must be either hard or soft everywhere. If we allow two readings it practically means that we don't merge ь with ě ę
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wannabeme
Member Avatar

So why dont you merge into -o-?
Or even better -ö-

pěsök vs pesek
pös vs pes
kögda vs kegda
vsögda vs vsegda
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
For this I have actually suggested ë once upon a time: pës, ostatëk, lëv, pisëmny, bëru, dëň etc. That would look a bit weird, perhaps, but it would have had the advantage that there's no need anymore to give genitives for these nouns: the ë makes it already clear that the genitive is psa, not pësa.

I wouldn't use ö for this. In fact, for ь ALL languages have e (except BCMS, which has a) here, for ъ the Western languages have e, the Eastern languages have o, BCMS has a. Instead of ë, we could also use č, of course: pčs, dčň, ostatčk etc.

If we'd do that, we can rid ourselves of the o/e rule, too, because it would also mean dobrčgo and sredňčgo, s domčm and s mořčm.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
wannabeme
Dec 12 2010, 09:29 PM
pěsök vs pesek
pös vs pes
kögda vs kegda
vsögda vs vsegda
Türkçe biliyor musun :)
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Moraczewski
Dec 12 2010, 06:36 PM
No, if we decide to really merge ě ę and ь into one e, it must be either hard or soft everywhere. If we allow two readings it practically means that we don't merge ь with ě ę
Looks at the Slavic languages:

RU: e/ě/č > ě, ę > ja (everything soft)
UK: e/č > e, ě > i, ę > ja (e/č hard, ě/ę soft)
BE: e/č > e, ě > ě, ę > ja (e/č hard, ě/ę soft)
PL: e/ě/č > ě, ę > ję (everything soft)
CZ: e/č > e, ě > ě, ę > ě, ja (e/č hard, ě/ę soft)
SK: e/č > e, ě > ě, ę > ja, ä (e/č hard, ě/ę soft)
SL: e/ě/ę/č > e (everything hard)
HR: e/ę > e, ě > ě, č > a (e/ę/č hard, ě soft)
SR: e/ę > e, ě > e, č > a (everything hard)
MK: e/ě/ę/č > e (everything hard)
BG: e/ę/č > e, ě > e/ja (e/č/ę hard, ě sometimes soft)

So the reflex of ę is hard only in South Slavic, the reflex of ě is hard only in Slovene, Serbian, Macedonian and (sometimes) Bulgarian.
The reflex of e is hard everywhere but in Russian and Polish.
Full merger of ě and e occurs in Russian, Polish (though not entirely), Slovene, Serbian and Macedonian.

in Polish the difference between e and ě is visible when it's followed by a hard dental consonant:
nieść > niósł (Slovianski nesti > nesl)
powiadać (Sl. povědati)
powiedzieć > powiedział (pověděti > pověděl)

And that's also why I never have to wonder about using ě in Slovianski. In case like uspěh I need to check the dictionary sometimes, though. But when I know that Polish has e and Ukrainian has і, that's usually enough as well.

Also note that Slovene merges not only e/ě/ę/č, but also ň. We can do that, too, but then we must indeed postulate that the resulting e MUST be hard, because ň never softens anything (this is in fact where Polish got its hard e).

[čćч]
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Dec 12 2010, 10:38 PM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
Belarusian has a soft e in most cases
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wannabeme
Member Avatar

iopq
Dec 12 2010, 10:25 PM
wannabeme
Dec 12 2010, 09:29 PM
pěsök vs pesek
pös vs pes
kögda vs kegda
vsögda vs vsegda
Türkçe biliyor musun :)
Jox, yalnız biraz Azəricə biliirəm. ;)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wannabeme
Member Avatar

Nope Nope Nope, actually croatian is the one who should have everything hard because native croatian dialacets all have ě=e or i and Serbian have e=je
and only Southeastserbian and Belgradish is ekavian like Bulgarian (not so strange since Serbs conquered those teritories from Bulgaians ;)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Fonologija i pravopis · Next Topic »
Add Reply