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| Flavourisation; Northern vs. Southern Slovianski | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 12:16 PM (5,251 Views) | |
| Gabriel Svoboda | Dec 9 2010, 08:31 PM Post #76 |
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Well, standard Slovianski has just i, hasn't it? Of course, we talked about y a lot, but it was always in a clear connection with Naučni Slovianski or Slovianski Plus; proposals to have y in Standard Slovianski were rare and none of them has ever been accepted, unless I severely misunderstood something. Besides that, having northern y would be very strange in the light of the proposed drastical southernization. Just like it is strange you insist on 5 northern soft consonants in Slovianski, even though only two of them are really necessary (ň, ľ) and only one more is quite easy for South Slavs too (ť at the end of feminine nouns). Nothing more is really necessary, and this is the direction the southernization should take - use features that are objectively simplier (i instead of y, 2-3 soft consonants instead of 5-7), not subjective biases (since TraT is no simplier than TroT).
I agree, that's the right direction of simplification. But -r- really is not the only possible merger of -or- and -er-, since I must agree with iopq: if we have vlk or prst this reduces understandability to Russians dramatically, not to mention the reaction "HOW THE HELL DO YOU READ THIS IT HAS NO VOWELS IS THIS A TYPO" if we have volk and your language has vlk you probably don't mind, because every language has vowels if your language has volk and we have vlk you are really confused because your language may not even know the concept of a syllabic liquid Also, even if you select only one of the two following pronunciations of prvi as standard, namely either [p@rvi] or [pr@vi], you can be sure people will use both. However, you can't be sure people won't hear e. g. [pr@vi] as [pravi] (since some Slavs are accustomed to hearing vowels reduced, but then writing them in full). So, the vowel should be kept. If you look at the dictinoary, you'll see -čr- is more than twice more common than -ňr-. So, the result of the merger should be -er-. Yes, it will lead to berzo, gerb, gerdi, gerlo, gernec, gernuti, gersť, gertaň, hert, kerčiti, kerčma, kermiti, merkov, merznuti, sterčiti, terg, vtergnuti - which looks unnatural, but only to an east Slavic minority, for a majority it is just a normal breaking of a difficult consonant cluster. Note: bňršč, hňrvatský are proper names, ergo *beršč and *hervatski are not a necessary outcome of the above rule.
Not completely. TraT is a development that occurred in a significant portion of the Slavic world worth 3 votes, while akanje (when present in orthography) is a specialty of a small language, surrounded by languages that are different in this respect. Every Belarusian probably knows Russian enough to know that such specialty is not to be used in inter-Slavic communication, just like, for example, every Czech knows Slovak enough to know that klíč and ulice are Czech specialties and everywhere else one must use kľuč and ulica to communicate with Slavs.
And I think Slovianski should be an objective language.
Indeed, and why there should be any further discussion, if something is common to some 84 % of Slavic languages, including three most widely spoken of them? Please understand that even if the words "northern" and "southern" look similar, they are not at all equal, just like China and Vatican are not. Ergo Slovianski should actually be closer to the northern branch, not a half-way between northern and southern.
TroT is not poor for South Slavs, not more than TraT would be for Ukrainians. -er- might be poor for South Slavs, but for North Slavs -r- is not only poor, it is just awful, since unpronounceable.
Yes, Simplified Russian is a good name for Slovianski in its current state. The current voting system ensures Russian is deprived of its most exotic features, yet without introducing another exotic features from the other side of the Slavic world.
Then, why not just use flavourisations for subjective tastes, and keep Slovianski objective? Flavourisations are indeed an excellent idea of yours, only they are overshadowed by the fact that you propose to modify Standard Slovianski according to one of these flavourisations. If you hadn't proposed to touch Standard Slovianski, there would have been no five-page controversy now and we all would have been setting fireworks instead! And southern features would only (and rightly) be used where they properly belong: in communication with south Slavs. |
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| steeven | Dec 9 2010, 08:50 PM Post #77 |
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Even with your excellent explanation, I still do not understand why Russian-speakers would not be able to understand the vowel-omitted word-forms - especially because cyrillic version would have "yer" "Ъ" to mark the omission.
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| Moraczewski | Dec 9 2010, 09:34 PM Post #78 |
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I must admit that trg and brzy are much more understandable for Russian than terg and berzy |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Dec 9 2010, 09:42 PM Post #79 |
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Okay, if trg and brzy finally appear to be the best (or rather: the least bad) merger of -er- and -or-, I can live with it. Then we should think about orthographical and phonetical measures to minimalise the potential confusion. My primary concern is about TroT and TraT, the only remainig one of Jan's proposed changes. |
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| Moraczewski | Dec 9 2010, 09:48 PM Post #80 |
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For TraT my opinion is still the same. Yes, I like it, I enjoy it and I would like to live with that. But we must be aware that for typical Russian words like krava, brada, blato, mlat are hard nuts to crack. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Dec 9 2010, 10:05 PM Post #81 |
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well the thing about TroT is that Russians don't like it if you see any pan-Slavic project made by a Russian it always has TraT because of the logic "it's ok for Russians two thirds of the time, South Slavic and Czech/Slovak use it, Ukrainian uses it in loans from OCS as well, just not as often, let's have it" I mean I've gotten used to it, and most people here have as well but others don't remain convinced I don't think trg and търг are really symmetric, though and we'd be introducing another letter to the alphabet if we have trg, then let's have трг |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Dec 9 2010, 11:15 PM Post #82 |
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Well these are two ways of pronouncing TRG in Serbian. Like TÖRG and like TRRRG. törg, börzy, mörtvy and krĺva, brĺda, blĺto looks cool ... Scandianavians would start to like Slavs haha, probably claiming that we are some lost gothic tribe
Edited by wannabeme, Dec 9 2010, 11:15 PM.
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| iopq | Dec 9 2010, 11:28 PM Post #83 |
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lingvoforum experts say that TraT is a requirement for syllabic r, so they're kind of a package deal kind of makes sense, no language that has a syllabic r has -ro- or -oro- Edited by iopq, Dec 9 2010, 11:28 PM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| pne | Dec 10 2010, 08:37 AM Post #84 |
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That's something I've been wondering, too. When I read pages such as http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/grammar1.html, they use y in many noun/adjective endings even in (what I think is) "standard Slovianski"; also, the mapping in http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/nauczny_medzsuslovjanski.html of vowels from NMS -> Slovianski Plus -> Slovianski -> Slovianto has y in all the first three forms. Are those (parts of) pages outdated, then? y seems natural to me since the Slavic language I've had most contact with is Russian, but for Slovianski I'd like to know what Slovianski says, not necessarily with Russian (or etymology) says - if there's a consensus (or even a majority opinion) that i should be used in stS (and y reserved for S+ and NMS), then I'd like to know that. (And preferably see that reflected in what I thought were the standard pages on Slovianski. Though I realise that there's not always time to keep web sites updated immediately.) |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Dec 10 2010, 08:51 AM Post #85 |
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I keep thinking about the -er-/-or-/-r- problem. Let me sum it up, we have three options, none of them without disadvantages: 1) torg, smerť + consonant clusters are broken with natural and etymological vowels - west and south Slavs don't know when to fill in e and when o 2) terg, smerť (or alternatively: torg, smorť) + consonant clusters are still broken, and west and south Slavs know which vowel to fill in - east Slavs have problems with this, vowel deletion is better understood than vowel replacement 3) trg, smrť + easy to understand - difficult to pronounce You know, I can live with the option 3), but I don't like it, because it means we are introducing schwa as an official vowel in Slovianski. Until now, people could be encouraged to pronounce Slovianski always with clear, full vowels, with no reductions into schwa. As soon as we introduce schwa, Russians might start to think "if schwa is allowed, it is also allowed to reduce any vowel into schwa, just like we do it in our native language". Ergo, a Pandora's box will be opened and the most difficult Russian feature for other Slavs to learn and understand, namely stress-dependent vowel reduction, will become permissible in Slovianski. Schwas are really not good for clarity at all. I made up the example of [pr@vi] going to be heard as [pravi], but I think it can actually happen. Look at this thread: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/topic/494321/1/ Here, the same Czech schwa-words, "vznesl" and "snesl", were heard in three different ways: - as [vznesl@] and [snesl@] by me (as a native speaker) - as [vznes@l] and [snes@l] by Silmethule, i. e. he misheared the position of the schwa - as [vznesel] and [snesel] by iopq, i. e. he misheared not only the position but also the quality of the schwa This problem will become our daily bread if we introduce trg, smrť. |
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| Moraczewski | Dec 10 2010, 09:31 AM Post #86 |
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In fact, it won't happen. You know, most Russians (without linguistic education) have no idea what schwa is, and they don't realize that they actually pronounce it in many positions. Because when we pronounce "mэlako" we think that we are pronouncing "moloko" but in relaxed way. So I tell you, introducing schwa before syllabical R will not tempt Russians to pronounce mэlako. All we have to do for Russians is to say: hey people, when speaking Slovianski, don't pronounce words relaxed way. The same goes for Slovenes. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Dec 10 2010, 09:34 AM Post #87 |
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Who's gonna pronounce it this way? Personally I pronounce schwa before R, I don't see why this can be a problem. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Dec 10 2010, 09:43 AM Post #88 |
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Okay, thanks for the explanation.
Czechs and Slovaks are gonna pronouncing it that way. And even if you pronounce [p@rvi], people can hear it as [pr@vi] and eventually as [pravi] - just like people were able to hear [vznesl@] as [vznes@l] or even [vznesel]. |
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| Moraczewski | Dec 10 2010, 10:24 AM Post #89 |
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We can make an experiment - to record an post here how you would pronounce PRVY. I can do it tomorrow. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| pne | Dec 10 2010, 11:32 AM Post #90 |
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Are those words pronounced with schwas? I thought they were syllabic continuants? |
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