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Flavourisation; Northern vs. Southern Slovianski
Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 12:16 PM (5,252 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Dec 8 2010, 12:57 PM
I don't think we should get rid of the population criterion because otherwise we don't have a tie breaker. If population doesn't matter, then what is the reason we group smaller languages together anyway?
I've never seen the division into six as a population thing, but rather as a matter of closely related (and mutually understandable) languages:
- RU
- BE/UK
- PL
- CZ/SK
- SL/SH
- MK/BG

But an alternative and definitely easier solution would be a mini-vote: instead of 1 million speakers, work with languages of only 8-9 million speakers. Then we get:
- RU
- UK
- PL
- CZ
- SH
- BG

Belarussian would be represented by either Russian, Ukrainian or Polish anyway. Slovak by either Czech, Polish or Ukrainian. If they don't agree with any of those, their input wouldn't have a chance anyway.

And like I said, if population really matters that much, than we should use some kind of Simplified Russian. Native language of some 45% of all Slavs, second language of 15-20%, passively understood by another bunch.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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iopq
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well we could have a language 90% understandable to Russians and 85% understandable to serbs or a language that's 87% understandable to both

neither view is wrong, I feel we should go for the former option, you feel we should go for the latter
well in the case of TorT and TolT we probably hit 90% understandable to Russian AND Serbian if we go with -ra- and -la- just because most words in Russian have CS doublets that mean a similar thing

if we go with -ra- I think raz- and rabota is fine for similarity

however, if we have vlk or prst this reduces understandability to Russians dramatically, not to mention the reaction "HOW THE HELL DO YOU READ THIS IT HAS NO VOWELS IS THIS A TYPO"
if we have volk and your language has vlk you probably don't mind, because every language has vowels
if your language has volk and we have vlk you are really confused because your language may not even know the concept of a syllabic liquid
if your language has vovk or vouk and we have vlk you probably won't see a connection at all
Edited by iopq, Dec 8 2010, 03:31 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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wannabeme
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ra, la ok from me
ol - ok from my side
er or r - decide withouth me
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Dec 8 2010, 03:27 PM
if we go with -ra- I think raz- and rabota is fine for similarity
Yup!

Quote:
 
if your language has vovk or vouk and we have vlk you probably won't see a connection at all

Yeah, but following your own logic, that shouldn't count: oł > ou in Belarussian and Ukrainian is the same kind of thing as lexicalised akanje in the case of -ara-, after all. If you don't want to count the latter, then you shouldn't count the former either. Besides, let's face it: how many Belarussians and Ukrainians are there who are NOT familiar with the Russian equivalent -ol-?

But this point if pretty moot. We have already decided to keep -ol-. It's the majority decision, after all. And it is not so problematic, because in all languages except Polish and Slovak soft L is hardened anyway. In the case of R it's different.

But tell me: how do първы, смърть, вълк, тълсты, жълты, бършч etc. look to you? And what do you think of Vojta's solution: p`rvy, sm`rť, v`lk, t`lsty, ž`lty, b`ršč?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Moraczewski
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 8 2010, 08:05 PM

But tell me: how do първы, смърть, вълк, тълсты, жълты, бършч etc. look to you? A
Those are pretty fine for Russian, also Bulgarians will be pleased.
But Vojta's apostrophes is the thing I'm never going to use. You know well how many people were complaining about omnipresent apostrophes in Slovianski-2008, and Vojta system has them probably even more.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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iopq
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not true because ьл, ъл > ов is a lexical change that doesn't have other reflexes in Belarusian and Ukrainian and no check words
there is basically no way to know that вовк has an л in it

in other words it's possible to tell what the original vowel was, like голад - галодны shows that the original form is голод
in words that don't have stress alternations even Russian gets it wrong sometimes, like пором became паром due to lack of spelling tradition and unclear pronunciation

but in most cases akanje is not lexicalized, I just saw a clip where a Russian guy was yelling at the woman he was breaking up with and actually pronouncing his O's for emphasis...

I like първы more than првы because I know that ъ is a vowel, but we don't have that vowel in Slovianski, and I really dislike p`rvy
if anything it should be pərvy, lol
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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iopq
Dec 8 2010, 08:39 PM

but in most cases akanje is not lexicalized, I just saw a clip where a Russian guy was yelling at the woman he was breaking up with and actually pronouncing his O's for emphasis...
wow give link ;)
probably he was from north-east
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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iopq
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Moraczewski
Dec 8 2010, 08:47 PM
iopq
Dec 8 2010, 08:39 PM

but in most cases akanje is not lexicalized, I just saw a clip where a Russian guy was yelling at the woman he was breaking up with and actually pronouncing his O's for emphasis...
wow give link ;)
probably he was from north-east
uhh, no, it's a very common thing
you can tell he's from an area where akanje is the standard

NSFW NOT SAFE FOR WORK DO NOT CLICK HAS A BUNCH OF PORN ADS ON THE SIDE
http://www.mentalzero.com/Reality-Show-Slut-Beaten-For-Cheating-On-Her-Boyfriend-974.html
at 0:37 he clearly says ни-что-же-ство right after saying ничтожъства a second earlier

that's what I mean
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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gossips
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Quote:
 
But tell me: how do първы, смърть, вълк, тълсты, жълты, бършч etc. look to you? And what do you think of Vojta's solution: p`rvy, sm`rť, v`lk, t`lsty, ž`lty, b`ršč?


The first look normal, the second look frightful.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yeah, I kinda agree. I quite like the aesthetics of NS, but these things look a bit like wrats on an otherwise very pretty body. OTOH there's not really an alternative either. The best I can propose is that prvy is automatically transliterated as първы and vice versa.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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gossips
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We may use some synthetic solution here. Something like that Igor has mentioned above.
Quote:
 
I really dislike p`rvy... if anything it should be pərvy

Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 8 2010, 08:05 PM
But tell me: how do първы, смърть, вълк, тълсты, жълты, бършч etc. look to you? And what do you think of Vojta's solution: p`rvy, sm`rť, v`lk, t`lsty, ž`lty, b`ršč?
I do not like it.
And my kolegi many months ago almost set fire to their offices when that many apostrophes were used!!

^o) :o
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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gossips
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Quote:
 
I do not like it.

Even those, which are in Cyrillic (with yers)? If so, then - why?
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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steeven
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gossips
Dec 9 2010, 12:30 AM
Even those, which are in Cyrillic (with yers)? If so, then - why?
първы, смърть, вълк, тълсты, жълты, бършч are fine ;)
(ale-no latinica s apostrofi jes anathema )
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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wannabeme
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We can construct or impert yers for latin alph.
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