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Flavourisation; Northern vs. Southern Slovianski
Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 12:16 PM (5,253 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Naučny Medžuslovjanski. I've changed the name for two reasons:
a) "Naučny Slovianski" would be abbreviated NS, which creates unnecessary confusion with Novoslovienskij.
b) It should not only cover Slovianski, but similar projects as well (also in view of the upcoming merger).

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
And then, suddenly, I realised that before we introduced ę > e and infinitives on -ti, the sound changes applied in Slovianski were for over 90% identical to those of Russian (and only for some 30% to Polish and some 15% to Czech and Serbian). That is not a personal feeling, everybody can see that!


Indeed, that's a fact, but your way of solving it is not based on facts, it's based on personal feelings, just like Moraczewski puts it: "Well, let's put a bit of South here, a bit of East there... damn, there's too much "o", let's omit some part of them... "
From now we can not base on something "objective"
...

Quote:
 
But when a more Southern solution actually has the majority, why wouldn't we follow them in that case?


The problem is that at first you set the aim, and then you do the voting, manipulating it in the way so that the pre-preferred solution could have the majority ("Belarusian gorad is a vote for -ra-", "the Russian vote goes to -ra-" and similar nonsenses). If the voting is done objectively, the southern solution doesn't win at all.

Quote:
 
Okay then. To summarise:

*


* NMS ô becomes ĺ. CSl. TorT/TolT sequences become TraT/TlaT in standard Slovianski (and remains TroT/TloT in the Northern flavour).
* Syllabic r: this becomes TrT in Slovianski (mrtvy, brzo, prsť, krk) and remains TerT/TorT in Northern flavour)
* Syllabic l remains as it is: TolT in Slovianski (polny, volk, tolsty), TlT in the Southern flavour.
* NMS will probably need additional characters for syllabic R and L anyway. I'd say: ṛ ṛ́ ḷ ḷ̌ or something (or perhaps even better: ъr etc.)



Everyone agree?


I will use only Severnoslovianski from now on, then.

---

Quote:
 
ibo jesut v 6 jezykah iz 10


Please, don't really count languages. From one point of view we have five Slavic languages (Russian, Polish, Czech, Serbian, Bulgarian), from another point of view we have 18 (Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Rusyn, Polish, Kashubian, Silesian, Lower Sorbian, Upper Sorbian, Czech, Slovak, Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Slovenian, Bulgarian, Macedonian). Counting languages is therefore useless.

---

Quote:
 
In my oppinion schwa is a greet character and would conplete the function of those all Os and Es


In Czech the schwa is pronounced where phonetics demands it, not where etymology demands it: vlk is [vl@k], not at all [v@lk]. In not a few cases this schwa has even been vocalised in this position: *žltý --> [žl@tý] --> žlutý.

---

Quote:
 
Naučny Medžuslovjanski:

o 654x 8.25%
a 613x 7.73%
i 578x 7.29%
e 467x 5.89%
n 463x 5.84%

[...]

Czech:

o 562x 7.83%
e 514x 7.16%
a 492x 6.86%
i 427x 5.95%
n 394x 5.49%


Hehe, Slovianski and Czech are the only Slavic languages where "o" is most common. Ergo Slovianski is most similar to Czech. :)
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel Svoboda
Dec 7 2010, 04:03 PM
Quote:
 
But when a more Southern solution actually has the majority, why wouldn't we follow them in that case?


The problem is that at first you set the aim, and then you do the voting, manipulating it in the way so that the pre-preferred solution could have the majority ("Belarusian gorad is a vote for -ra-", "the Russian vote goes to -ra-" and similar nonsenses). If the voting is done objectively, the southern solution doesn't win at all.
That's quite a grave accusation, Gabriel. If you want to say that I manipulate things in order to achieve pre-preferred solutions, thus questioning my integrity, then please at least substantiate it. We're (fortunately!) not on Beseda here! Besides, it is not true. In fact, I have constantly been arguing with people in favour of TroT/TloT. And guess what? I doesn't convince people at all, the subject keeps coming back anyway.

Besides, Gabriel, following your own voting logic, the answer is:
TraT - 3 votes
ToroT - 2 votes
Trot - 1 vote
Ergo, TraT wins.

And for your information, I have set neither the Russian nor the Belarussian vote to TraT at all. But treating them like unambiguous votes in favour of TroT is pure nonsense. Russian has TraT in a LOT of cases, especially if you consider that the prefix raz- is good for some 40% of all occurrences. If these words were borrowed from OCS, well, tant pis then, we also don't care whether a word was borrowed from English or Latin. And what goes for Russian, goes for Belarussian even more. Who the hell cares whether a change was the result of akanje? What we have is a lot of instances of -ara-, and automatically treating them as a preference for TroT is at least as manipulative as what you are accusing me of.

Besides, even if you DO treat the Russian and Belarussian vote as unambiguous votes for ToroT, and even if you DO treat the vote for ToroT as a vote for TroT and against TraT, then still it is a matter of 3/3 votes. Automatically assuming that in such cases Russian decides is only one possible way of solving the issue. But hell, is it really so bad to give the Southern solution the benefit of the doubt in a few of such cases, given the fact that the North is already the dominant force anyway? After all, the purpose of Slovianski is to be understandable for some 85-90% for all Slavs, not for 95% to Russians and 75% for Serbs.

Quote:
 
I will use only Severnoslovianski from now on, then.

That's your prerogative. But you will have to agree that syllabic R has more votes than the East Slavic solution, now wouldn't you?

Quote:
 
In Czech the schwa is pronounced where phonetics demands it, not where etymology demands it: vlk is [vl@k], not at all [v@lk]. In not a few cases this schwa has even been vocalised in this position: *žltý --> [žl@tý] --> žlutý.

That's one more argument in favour of syllabic L and against OL. But okay, let's not talk about it.

Quote:
 
Hehe, Slovianski and Czech are the only Slavic languages where "o" is most common. Ergo Slovianski is most similar to Czech. :)

Indeed, and I found that most surprising! Especially if you consider that Czech has TraT, e as a filler vowel, etc. Okay, I just took the Wikipedia Main Page, which is different in all languages. Perhaps the featured article of the day was about the letter O! :D
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Eugeniusx
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Hehe, Slovianski and Czech are the only Slavic languages where "o" is most common. Ergo Slovianski is most similar to Czech
===

Mislilbijm, zxe to tozx bil tvoia rabota ;)
Imasx pravda Gabriel! Rekomendovajm zxe Slovanski besedniki se tolk ucxijut po Cxehju. :)
Edited by Eugeniusx, Dec 7 2010, 05:33 PM.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Ahem, what are you trying to tell us?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Aquarius

Gabriel
 
I will use only Severnoslovianski from now on, then.
Vmesto angliskogo?
Gabriel
 
Please, don't really count languages. From one point of view we have five Slavic languages (Russian, Polish, Czech, Serbian, Bulgarian), from another point of view we have 18 (Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Rusyn, Polish, Kashubian, Silesian, Lower Sorbian, Upper Sorbian, Czech, Slovak, Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Slovenian, Bulgarian, Macedonian). Counting languages is therefore useless.
My imemo 2 instrumenta - modeli i intuiciju. Jesli ne scxitati jezyki, za to imemo jedinu intuiciju i tvorimo novo Slovio. Mne to ne treba. Za to ne mozxno govoriti "ne scxitaj jezyki!". Vopros v tom, kak ih scxitati. Model' dolzxna byti prostoj i adekvatnoj. Model' s 10 jezykami (ru-be-uk-pl-sk-cs-sl-sh-mk-bg) rovnoj vagi je prosta i adekvatna. Predlozxijte vechej lepsxu!
Edited by Aquarius, Dec 7 2010, 08:40 PM.
Slov dobryh obranje čini se črez glasovanje!
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iopq
Administrator
wait a second, raz- and TraT are completely different issues
for one thing, Czech actually has TraT and roz-

I still maintain that roz- is a better solution

in terms of the "syllabic" consonants, they were not really syllabic in Proto-Slavic, but more like sequences of liquids and yers that formed almost "diphthongs"

so *mьrtvъ would become mrtvi, in NMS it should be more like mĭrtvy
in terms of akanje you're incorrect because it only happens in certain positions and it's a purely phonetic thing

let's say Belarusians still had the same language, and didn't write their akanje in their alphabet, would we change our voting logic? if so, does that mean if Ukrainian suddenly starts spelling голова as гулува (as it is pronounced in the West) we'd have to change our logic again?

and the funny thing is that Belarusians don't even pronounce [a] when they write a in that position, but they pronounce a schwa (roughly) in most of these positions
малако is actually [mələko]
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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iopq
Dec 7 2010, 05:12 PM
I still maintain that roz- is a better solution
It's funny, but I see no more strong arguments in favour of roz-...
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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wannabeme
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Armer Jan, sag ich nur. Wer kann allen zurecht machen, der ist noch nicht geboren!
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steeven
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Moraczewski
Dec 7 2010, 05:22 PM
iopq
Dec 7 2010, 05:12 PM
I still maintain that roz- is a better solution
It's funny, but I see no more strong arguments in favour of roz-...
Here is what Jan had to say about raz / roz at this location:
http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/single/?p=8012442&t=8232221

raz, roz - I know we have the rule that (T)orT > (T)roT in Slovianski, but this is sort of a special case. Naučni Slovianski has 262 words with ĺ, 84 of which contain the prefix rĺz-, in other words, it happens very frequently.
I'm wondering if we shouldn't be giving this prefix special treatment, using raz- instead of roz-. The truth is, only Polish, Ukrainian and Sorbian use roz- (I know, in Belarusian it's the akanje, but I don't think that matters much here). In terms of votes, it's 4.5 for raz- against 1.5 for roz-. The other argument for -ro-, namely that it is the best compromise between -ro-/-ra-/-oro- doesn't fly here here either, because all languages have either roz- or raz-. I move that we change this prefix to raz- in Slovianski.
;)
Edited by steeven, Dec 7 2010, 08:13 PM.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
But you will have to agree that syllabic R has more votes than the East Slavic solution, now wouldn't you?


Indeed, but as far as I remember, when I made a voting about this issue, most languages had both forms either vocalised or non-vocalised, mixture was a minority solution. And when I put both r and l on one heap, the vocalised forms were more common. Correct me if I am wrong. A mixture ergo is the worst possible solution.

Quote:
 
Indeed, and I found that most surprising! Especially if you consider that Czech has TraT, e as a filler vowel, etc. Okay, I just took the Wikipedia Main Page, which is different in all languages. Perhaps the featured article of the day was about the letter O!


Probably it is really dependent on the source text. I have looked for character frequencies of individual Slavic languages here, and it has shown up that not Czech, but only Ukrainian, Slovak and Slovenian have o as the most common letter, and a as the second most common letter - just like hitherto in Slovianski. Which corresponds nicely with your idea that Rusyn, Slovak and Slovenian are most central Slavic languages.

Quote:
 
That's quite a grave accusation, Gabriel. If you want to say that I manipulate things in order to achieve pre-preferred solutions, thus questioning my integrity, then please at least substantiate it. We're (fortunately!) not on Beseda here!


OK, I admit the verb "to manipulate" was quite a strong word to express my idea. Please accept my apologies, Jan.

Nevertheless, I can't get rid of the idea that you have a pre-preferred solution, and even if you say it aloud with no manipulations, still it means you interpret all the facts in the light of the pre-preferred solution, so that it would look like that instead of switching from a majority solution to a minority solution, we are actaully switching from a minority-till-now-for-some-mysterious-reasion-lookng-like-majority solution to an actual-majority sollution. It's not true, TroT and TloT are clearly majority solutions, and anything else is a south Slavic bias. A reasoned and publicly admited bias, but still a bias with whose reasons I don't agree.

About raz- and Belarusian, iopq has already written enough.

Quote:
 
Besides, even if you DO treat the Russian and Belarussian vote as unambiguous votes for ToroT, and even if you DO treat the vote for ToroT as a vote for TroT and against TraT, then still it is a matter of 3/3 votes. Automatically assuming that in such cases Russian decides is only one possible way of solving the issue. But hell, is it really so bad to give the Southern solution the benefit of the doubt in a few of such cases, given the fact that the North is already the dominant force anyway?


The benefit od the doubt ... well, but there is simply no doubt. Look, I am not against solving 3/3 cases using other criteria than simply population. I have no problem with using the "less populated" word, if we eventually get to know that the "less populated" word is actually also understandable for Russians and their coalition partners, while the "more populated" word would be more problematic for e. g. south Slavs. But T(o)roT vs. TraT is not the case. On the contrary, the "less populated" TraT would be considerably problematic for east Slavs in the lot of cases where they have ToroT, while the "more populated" TroT wants everyone, including south Slavs, to change just one letter at the most.

Quote:
 
After all, the purpose of Slovianski is to be understandable for some 85-90% for all Slavs, not for 95% to Russians and 75% for Serbs.


If Russian is more central Slavic language than Serbian, then it's inevitable that Slovianski will be more understandable for Russians more than for Serbians. Artificial reductions of understandability of arbitrarily chosen features? Just for non-central Slavs not to feel discriminated? No, thanks.

Quote:
 
Besides, Gabriel, following your own voting logic, the answer is:
TraT - 3 votes
ToroT - 2 votes
Trot - 1 vote


Nope.

The vowel beore r/l: o 2 votes, zero 4 votes.
The vowel after r/l: o 3 votes + majority of population, a 3 votes.

Making votes on final results instead of individual components would be a Lamer Slovianski feature. :)

Quote:
 
In fact, I have constantly been arguing with people in favour of TroT/TloT. And guess what? I doesn't convince people at all, the subject keeps coming back anyway.


Of course, since those who were satisfied with TroT were silent, they had no reason to speak up. Now they will have a big one, after failing to understand some incomprehensible TraTs in cases where they have ToroTs.
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iopq
Administrator
Moraczewski
Dec 7 2010, 05:22 PM
iopq
Dec 7 2010, 05:12 PM
I still maintain that roz- is a better solution
It's funny, but I see no more strong arguments in favour of roz-...
роспись - расписывать

here you can see that Russian has roz and writes it phonetically based on akanje under the influence of CS, but in words where it's under stress it keeps the original pronunciation
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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Gabriel Svoboda
Dec 7 2010, 08:19 PM

Indeed, but as far as I remember, when I made a voting about this issue, most languages had both forms either vocalised or non-vocalised, mixture was a minority solution. And when I put both r and l on one heap, the vocalised forms were more common. Correct me if I am wrong. A mixture ergo is the worst possible solution.
But why all of sudden Slovene system becomes the worst possible solution. Everything shows that it is the most understandable and easy-to-learn solution.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel Svoboda
Dec 7 2010, 08:19 PM
Quote:
 
But you will have to agree that syllabic R has more votes than the East Slavic solution, now wouldn't you?


Indeed, but as far as I remember, when I made a voting about this issue, most languages had both forms either vocalised or non-vocalised, mixture was a minority solution. And when I put both r and l on one heap, the vocalised forms were more common. Correct me if I am wrong. A mixture ergo is the worst possible solution.
Syllabic R is a difficult kind of vote. Like Dražen said, the best solution here would be schwa. But we have no schwa, at least not in our non-Naučny alphabet. Writing MRTVY and PRVY is a means to smuggle it in through the backdoor.

One way to look at this is taking into account is the difference between soft and hard R. East Slavic makes that distinction (mertvy vs. boršč), Polish doesn't in most cases (martwy, barszcz), Slovak sometimes, neither of the remaining languages does. Ergo, making this distinction is a minority solution. Besides, one that's not making it is simpler: after all, how would a West or South Slav know when to write -OR- or -ER-?

In any case, -R- is supported by all languages from Czech to Macedonian = 2,5 votes. The Bulgarian solution is closer to -R- than to the East Slavic solution. Polish would prefer -R- as well, in most cases at least. Even if we don't count Polish and Bulgarian at all, it is 2,5 votes against 2.

Of course, Novoslovienskij has m`rtvij, p`rvij, b`ršč etc. I don't really like the way that looks, but I have to admit that it's a clever solution anyway.

Quote:
 
OK, I admit the verb "to manipulate" was quite a strong word to express my idea. Please accept my apologies, Jan.

Sure thing!

Quote:
 
Nevertheless, I can't get rid of the idea that you have a pre-preferred solution, and even if you say it aloud with no manipulations, still it means you interpret all the facts in the light of the pre-preferred solution, so that it would look like that instead of switching from a majority solution to a minority solution, we are actaully switching from a minority-till-now-for-some-mysterious-reasion-lookng-like-majority solution to an actual-majority sollution.

Alas, no. Don't forget that it was me who proposed TroT/TloT in the first place! And from that moment, I've been defending it like a lion. Like I said, I think that objectively it is the best solution. I haven't changed my mind about that, as I even mentioned in my post.

But what I never realised was how very similar Slovianski actually is to East Slavic. The reason for that is quite simple: Polish shares a lot of similarities with it, and Polish + East Slavic together already have one half of the votes. Now basically there's nothing wrong with that, but let's not forget the purpose of Slovianski: to be maximally understandable for all Slavs. The voting system is just one a tool to achieve that. A great and useful tool, yes, but it is not sacred. And the more I've worked with it, the more I've come to understand that understandability is really not always served with voting. Because what happens? Polish, Belarussian and Ukrainian are three mutually quite understandable languages, with together 2 votes. Add Russian (which in most cases will work), and you have 3 votes and a majority of the population - no further discussion. Add Czech/Slovak, and you have 3 votes as well. They can only be overruled if South Slavic and Russian both share the same solution, which doesn't happen that often. And now look: how often does it happen that East Slavic is actually outvoted by a West/South Slavic coalition? Rarely! How often does it happen that West Slavic is outvoted by an East/South Slavic coalition? A bit more often, but still not very often. Thus, the solutions we have that ARE acceptable for South Slavs are usually shared by a vast majority anyway. And that's why I think the voting system creates bias indeed.

If we want to make sure that Slovianski is understandable for all Slavs, we have to make sure that this goes for South Slavs as well. If we achieve an excellent result for East and West Slavs, but a poor result for South Slavs, then we have failed. And if we make understandability for Serbs and Bulgarians from 80% to 85% by reducing understandability for Poles and Russians from 95% to 93%, then I'm all for it. This is my personal opinion, of course. But I also think that if we don't work actively on improving understandability for South Slavs, we might as well propose a "Simpified Russian": 100% understandable for all East Slavs, as well as all those West and South Slavs who know Russian or at least have a passive understanding of it.

In any case, the least we can do is abolish this "majority of the population" criterion in the case of 3/3 votes, because practically it means that Russian always decides, which is unfair because Russian is already in the winning camp anyway.

Quote:
 
It's not true, TroT and TloT are clearly majority solutions, and anything else is a south Slavic bias. A reasoned and publicly admited bias, but still a bias with whose reasons I don't agree.

About raz- and Belarusian, iopq has already written enough.

[/quote]
Well, I don't buy those arguments. Akanje is a phonological development just like all others. In Belarussian it's part of the standard written language, in Russian in a few cases (like raz-). We work with standard written languages. And looking at a Russian dictionary, you'll see hundreds of words starting with raz- and less than 10 starting with roz-. Treating that as a base for saying that Russian prefers roz- is twisted logic to me. If anything, I'm more sensitive to the argument that Czech (always) and Slovak (usually) have roz-.

What I'd really like to know is this: how often do TraT/TlaT and ToroT/ToloT really occur in Russian?

Quote:
 
The benefit od the doubt ... well, but there is simply no doubt. Look, I am not against solving 3/3 cases using other criteria than simply population. I have no problem with using the "less populated" word, if we eventually get to know that the "less populated" word is actually also understandable for Russians and their coalition partners, while the "more populated" word would be more problematic for e. g. south Slavs. But T(o)roT vs. TraT is not the case. On the contrary, the "less populated" TraT would be considerably problematic for east Slavs in the lot of cases where they have ToroT, while the "more populated" TroT wants everyone, including south Slavs, to change just one letter at the most.

Quote:
 
Of course, since those who were satisfied with TroT were silent, they had no reason to speak up. Now they will have a big one, after failing to understand some incomprehensible TraTs in cases where they have ToroTs.

"Considerably problematic"... "incomprehensible TraTs"... aren't you exaggerating a bit? Except for roz- (which doesn't fall in this category anyway, as there is no -oro- option here), a word like this will occur perhaps 2 times on a page. Wouldn't Russians and Ukrainians have the intelligence to understand blato, glava and vrana anyway, especially if these are placed in a context? And even if they don't, then so what if their understandability rate is already a lot higher than that of South Slavs?

Quote:
 
The vowel beore r/l: o 2 votes, zero 4 votes.
The vowel after r/l: o 3 votes + majority of population, a 3 votes.

Yeah. But 3 votes = 3 votes, i.e. not a majority. The population argument is subjective, and anyway, just an euphemism for saying "so Russian decides". That's why we need to get rid of that criterion. I propose to use a different one: so let South Slavic decide (provided that it speaks with one voice, of course). Biased? Sure! But a fair one, in my opinion. Of course, you'll say, South Slavs shouldn't complain as they are already overrepresented in the vote - but what good does that do if they are constantly outvoted anyway?

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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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iopq
Administrator
I don't think we should get rid of the population criterion because otherwise we don't have a tie breaker. If population doesn't matter, then what is the reason we group smaller languages together anyway?

Might as well break it up this way if population doesn't matter:
1 Russian
1 Belarusian
1 Ukrainian

1 Polish
1 Czech
1 Slovak

1 Slovene
1 BCS
1 Bulgarian (Macedonian treated as a dialect of Bulgarian)
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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