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Flavourisation; Northern vs. Southern Slovianski
Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 12:16 PM (5,254 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Wannabeme
 
If you want to help Southslavic branch then what would be good is to pay attention to grammar and vocabolary. For instant you could favorise writing iz- instead of vy- because you will understand both and Southslavs only iz-.


Yes, I asked about that not long ago in the Slovnik thread, I think. Is it worth having double dictionary entries for all occurrences of iz-/vy-? Would a simple direct from vy- to iz- or vice versa do? Or would it be a better idea to kick out vy- altogether, since iz- is understood everywhere. But then, can every occurrence of vy- indeed by replaced with iz-?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Aquarius

Dolju oleja v ogn'. Silabicxny -r- i -l- jesut dostatocxno irregularny. V nekotoryh slucxajah "silabicxny" jezyki (mk-sh-sl-cs-sl-pl) sledujut voshodnoslovjanskomu primeru, davajucxi -ol-/-er-, napriklad:

polny (sl-mk)
cxerveny (pl-cs-sk)
solnce (sl-mk)

V takih slucxajah ja za -ol-/-er- kak naj naturalny vybor (izvinij me, Jan, nesm adept NMS). Jesli zxe -ol-/-er- nema v 5 iz 10 jezykov, ja za silabicxny -l-/-r-, znova kak za naj naturalny vybor.

:D
Edited by Aquarius, Dec 7 2010, 10:41 AM.
Slov dobryh obranje čini se črez glasovanje!
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Dec 6 2010, 09:39 PM
"Slovene or Macedonian, you mean. Bulgarian has вълк."
In any way вълк is closer to volk than vuk. So vuk speakers who know вълк will easily understand volk.
This was not my statement, somebody from BCSM told me that.

" TraT, Tlat, TrT and TolT."
this would be nice, I think.

Yeah, I think so too. Although in my opinion the problem is bigger in the case of L. But yes, if we follow the majority consistently, then that's what we should do. BTW, I guess a speaker who is used to MRTVY wouldn't automatically know whether to write MERTVY or MORTVY in Slovianski, right? So this actually WOULD make it easier for South Slavs (including CZ and SK).

Gossips
 
Afaicr, I've suggested the solution, which will understand everyone - to change a syllabic -l- to -olu-, you've denied it as "we don't need 2 syllables when some languages don't have even 1" (well, not exactly, but you said something like that).

Thing is -olu- doesn't exist anywhere. And there's one more thing: the reflex of syllabic L is often determined by its surroundings, and also by the question whether this L is hard or soft. In Polish it goes more or less like this:
after t, d, s, z: łu (słup, tłuc, dłubać)
after p, b, m, v: hard L becomes oł/ół/uł, soft Ľ becomes ieł (before a dental consonant) or il (otherwise)
after k, g, h, š, ž, č: hard L becomes eł, soft Ľ becomes oł/ół/uł.

In Czech it's something similar, AFAIK: also -lu- vs. -l-. So you see, except in cases like łu having -olu- would make any sense. Of course, in words like "tňlmačiti", the meaning is obvious because there isn't anything that looks similar anyway. But in the case of a word like "tňlkti", I'm very unsure if a Pole would automatically link it to "tłuc".
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Aquarius
Dec 6 2010, 09:59 PM
polny (sl-mk)
cxerveny (pl-cs-sk)
solnce (sl-mk)
Slovene and Macedonian indeed have -ol-. Together with East Slavic, that brings the vote to 3. Actually 2, if you don't count Ukrainian/Belarussian -ов-/-оў-. But if you do count those, you must also add the Polish and the Bulgarian votes (at least) to the votes in favour of -`l-. Honestly, I think the old compromise we had for a while (and later withdrew), -UL-, wasn't so bad, really.

Červeny: that's probably kind of an exception. BCMS doesn't seem to like syllabic R after č either, so they have crven and crn instead of črven and črn.

BTW, solnce is a word that behaves irregularly in several languages.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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steeven
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Whew!
Posted Image
HuooH | ХУООХ !!!
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Eugeniusx
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Jan napisal:
Well now, you know as well as I do that this is nonsense. Just look at your own sentence:
- how many Slavic languages write "moia"?
===
Ili moia ili moja, to kwestia ortografia
---
- how many Slavic languages write "Slavju"?
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Tolk Slovio :) No ale vse Slavian to razumit :)
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- how many Slavic languages have the ending "-ovajt"?
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ovajt, ovat, ovac ... itd :) No ale vse Slavian to razumit :)
---
- how many Slavic languages use "nigde" for "never" instead of "nowhere"?
===
nigda ili nigdy, Schulmeister! a typo ;)
===
- how many Slavic languages have constructions like "jazik-beseda-klub"?
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tolk moja (sic!) denesju invencia :) zakazany???
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- how many words here were actually not taken from Russian, except "plus-plus", which is Latin?
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plus, to po nasxemu! :)
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- how come juxtaposing "glos", "gorod" and "zlato" is anything else but frankensteinism?
===
glos to po nasxemu tezx ;)
===
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Eugeniusx
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Steeven soglosijm so Te :)
Edited by Eugeniusx, Dec 6 2010, 11:45 PM.
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steeven
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Rozumem sejčas mnogo lepše/više, zašto jes dobre imati občij protokol ortografii i znane slova.
Jerbo prostejšij jes za čitanje i rozumetje teksta! :D

Prosim prepisati to samo rečenje/slovgrupa* vo svojeju vlastnoju formeju medžuslovjanskog jezika.

*...da, da > jedno mojego omiljeneg zxrakuleg slova! :P ;)

Spoiler: click to toggle



Edited by steeven, Dec 7 2010, 04:52 AM.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
when I read "jerbo" I always think "jejbo" - a quick pronounciation of Ей богу :)
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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iopq
Dec 7 2010, 05:53 AM
when I read "jerbo" I always think "jejbo" - a quick pronounciation of Ей богу :)
Ah! Myslilem že to tako značil !! Ne? ;) B)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Okay then. To summarise:

  • NMS ô becomes ĺ. CSl. TorT/TolT sequences become TraT/TlaT in standard Slovianski (and remains TroT/TloT in the Northern flavour).
  • Syllabic r: this becomes TrT in Slovianski (mrtvy, brzo, prsť, krk) and remains TerT/TorT in Northern flavour)
  • Syllabic l remains as it is: TolT in Slovianski (polny, volk, tolsty), TlT in the Southern flavour.
  • NMS will probably need additional characters for syllabic R and L anyway. I'd say: ṛ ṛ́ ḷ ḷ̌ or something (or perhaps even better: ъr etc.)


Everyone agree?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Eugeniusx
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Ocxviduo ne! ;) Ne vidijte, zxe Vasx "NMS" i "Slovianski" je uzx plus-plus komplikacju cxem prirodju jaziki? :) ;)
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Moraczewski
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 7 2010, 10:50 AM
Okay then. To summarise:

  • NMS ô becomes ĺ. CSl. TorT/TolT sequences become TraT/TlaT in standard Slovianski (and remains TroT/TloT in the Northern flavour).
  • Syllabic r: this becomes TrT in Slovianski (mrtvy, brzo, prsť, krk) and remains TerT/TorT in Northern flavour)
  • Syllabic l remains as it is: TolT in Slovianski (polny, volk, tolsty), TlT in the Southern flavour.
  • NMS will probably need additional characters for syllabic R and L anyway. I'd say: ṛ ṛ́ ḷ ḷ̌ or something (or perhaps even better: ъr etc.)


Everyone agree?
This is exactly what Slovene has. So this is completely natural system.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Aquarius

Jan
 
Everyone agree?
Dobre. Cxuju, zxe model s polny, volk, tolsty, ale mrtvy, brzo, prst', krk lepsxe priblizxuje realnost', zxe obadva polny/mertvy i plny/mrtvy. Ja uzxe dumal o tom, ale Jan mene prestignul.
Edited by Aquarius, Dec 7 2010, 12:58 PM.
Slov dobryh obranje čini se črez glasovanje!
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wannabeme
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Guys, what is NMS?
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