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Flavourisation; Northern vs. Southern Slovianski
Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 12:16 PM (5,255 Views)
gossips
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Quote:
 
Zato ne trevozxij(te) se.

Really? Did you monopolize Russian or something?

Vlk, pln, slnce look like abbreviations for me. I have to agree with Andrey and Igor that this change will reduce the understandability of these words for Russians. Well, maybe for 3/4 of Russians :D

And this change is just pointless anyway, how would that help to normalize the "disbalance" for Southerns?
They have:
vuk, вук
вълк
волк
Why should they understand vlk better?
Edited by gossips, Dec 6 2010, 06:28 PM.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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Moraczewski
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You are doing now kind of frankensteinism! "Well, let's put a bit of South here, a bit of East there... damn, there's too much "o", let's omit some part of them... "
From now we can not base on something "objective" - when we begin balancing only by personal feeling that some language family is overused and some is not...
BTW I hope you won't make us write "pjet", "mjeso" and stuff. This will be the return to these j's that were hated mostly by everybody.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Moraczewski
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I remember Drazen or some other BCSM speaker said that vlk is not that clear for BCSM speakers, but volk is more clear for those who has ever seen Slovene or Bulgarian.
Edited by Moraczewski, Dec 6 2010, 06:29 PM.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
You are doing now kind of frankensteinism! "Well, let's put a bit of South here, a bit of East there... damn, there's too much "o", let's omit some part of them... "
From now we can not base on something "objective" - when we begin balancing only by personal feeling that some language family is overused and some is not...


Agreed wholeheartedly!

Traditionally, languages like Slovene, Slovak or Rusyn have been treated as most "central" Slavic languages, but the actual work on Slovianski showed in not a few respects it's actually Russian that's most in the middle. That's a fact, cope with it.
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Aquarius

gossips
 
Did you monopolize Russian or something?
Vy interpretujete moji slova. "ne trevozxij(te) se" znacxilo "ne vse ruske imejut jedino mnenje" (vsled cxego steeven trevozxil se).

Da, ja myslim, zxe silabicxny -r- i -l- dolzxny byti v Slovianskom, ibo jesut v 6 jezykah iz 10 (mk-sh-sl-sk-cs-pl), i v bulgarskom bez malogo tako zxe.

A to, zxe nekojemu ruskomu oku od togo nekomfortno, ne je seriozny dovod. Moje oko, naprimer, to raduje!

Slovianski je rozumny kompromis medzxu slovjanofonami, a kompromisy trebujut zxertv. V rozumnyh granicah. Tutta zxertva ne je velika, dazxe, ja skazal by, zxe absolutno ne principialna.

Celkom ne vidim problema. Naprotiv, tutto resxenje cxest' problemov anuluje. O tom uzxe govoril Jan.

Naposledok. Silabicxny -r- i -l- ne sut ustupka juzxnym slovjanam. Zapadne slovjane tako zxe imejut ih v svojih jazykah. Kde tut subjektivizm?
Edited by Aquarius, Dec 6 2010, 10:12 PM.
Slov dobryh obranje čini se črez glasovanje!
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wannabeme
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People I really dont know about that.

LA/RA accept but let us keep OL/ER because in my oppinion those who are used to OL/ER will harder understand L/R then other way around.

I have an idea :) Just fallow Churchslavonic here and you wont miss anything.
In my oppinion schwa is a greet character and would conplete the function of those all Os and Es but we cannot use them in latin and thats the problem so we have to use Os and Es.

If you want to help Southslavic branch then what would be good is to pay attention to grammar and vocabolary. For instant you could favorise writing iz- instead of vy- because you will understand both and Southslavs only iz-.
And I am very grateful fot the Ę istead of JA.
You cann freely soften after every E, Ě or E or I. It doesnt matter for us Southslavs as long as T still little bit looks like T and not complitely t'=č or something and as long you stay away from Akanje.
Edited by wannabeme, Dec 6 2010, 08:24 PM.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Moraczewski
Dec 6 2010, 06:28 PM
You are doing now kind of frankensteinism! "Well, let's put a bit of South here, a bit of East there... damn, there's too much "o", let's omit some part of them... "
From now we can not base on something "objective" - when we begin balancing only by personal feeling that some language family is overused and some is not...
Well, no. But while I working on this flavourisation idea, I extrapolated these two extremes, the Northern and the Southern one. Mind, the Southern one is not based on South Slavic only. Just like the Northern one, it is based on all languages, it's just that features of certain languages weigh heavier. And it struck me that Slovianski is practically identical to the Northern variant and quite different from the Southern.

And then, suddenly, I realised that before we introduced ę > e and infinitives on -ti, the sound changes applied in Slovianski were for over 90% identical to those of Russian (and only for some 30% to Polish and some 15% to Czech and Serbian). That is not a personal feeling, everybody can see that! In fact, I'm very surprised me that I never realised it before...

In any case, it explains why Slovianski looks alien to a lot of Slavs. More alien than it should.

This has nothing in common with Frankensteinism. It was never said that we have to adopt Russian phonology in toto. And yes, I still favour a rather inclusive kind of phonology, with many soft consonants and y, for example. Notwithstanding the fact that these things make it harder for South Slavs. We follow majority solutions, and if they happen to coincide with one language more than with another, that's fine. But that does not oblige use to follow it on every step. And here we have two related cases, namely TorT/TolT sequences and TrT/TlT sequences, where the Russian solution does not even have a majority (some 2.5 votes for TroT vs. some 3.5 for TraT, 2 votes for TorT vs. 3 votes for TrT, 3 votes for TolT vs. 2.5 for TlT)?

TarT really shouldn't be so much of a problem for Russians, since they have a lot of those already. Poles can handle it too - at least not worse than Czechs/Slovaks/South Slavs can handle TorT. And heck, if you think Russians won't understand TLSTY, then how on Earth can you expect people who are used to tlusty to understand TOLSTY? And how about MRTVY? Is that really so much harder for a Russian than MERTVY is for a Czech or Serb? If such words would really make Slovianski impossible to handle for Russians, then the whole idea of an Interslavic language is pretty moot, methinks.

And for the record: yes, Slovianski is pretty much dominated by o - every experienced conlanger can tell you that. If you don't believe me, then just for fun take any text in Slovianski and count the occurrences of a, e, i, o, u and y.

Or even better: I just did a character count myself for all the Slovianski texts on my "samples" page. Here are the results:
Code:
 

o 840x 10.63%
e 774x 9.80%
i 645x 8.16%
a 630x 7.97%
n 481x 6.09%
t 386x 4.89%
r 383x 4.85%
s 355x 4.49%
l 327x 4.14%
j 322x 4.08%
d 318x 4.02%
v 317x 4.01%
u 239x 3.02%
k 234x 2.96%
m 209x 2.65%
g 185x 2.34%
z 176x 2.23%
y 165x 2.09%
p 163x 2.06%
b 159x 2.01%
č 132x 1.67%
ž 73x 0.92%
h 67x 0.85%
š 58x 0.73%
c 50x 0.63%
ľ 46x 0.58%
f 18x 0.23%
ť 17x 0.22%
ň 12x 0.15%
ď 5x 0.06%
ř 4x 0.05%

Now try to do the same thing for any Slavic natlang and you'll find out that Slovianski is really a bit out of balance here.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Moraczewski
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Yes, yes, not all South Slavic language have syllabical -r-/-l- and in CZ/SK it happens not everywhere.
That's true that for most Russians vlk will have effect: wtf?
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Moraczewski
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Yes, I may agree with TraT and even with TrT
but the idea that "o" is overpresented seems kind of funny for me. Well we are not experienced conlangers to find that out, and for us, I believe, omnipresence of "o" is absolutely natural. Look at any natural language, you will find that schwa is the most common sound in English, e is the most common letter, and finally very distant example - that ö is the most common sound in Komi and so on! This is normal!
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Eugeniusx
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Moraczewski napisal: You are doing now kind of frankensteinism! "Well, let's put a bit of South here, a bit of East there...
===
To vsegda bil moia kritika o Slovianski: Slavianskju metoda-glosovanie produkovajt (a) "Frankensteinizm" a (b) dominacia o vostokju-Slavju i Polskju jaziki. To znacxit: Slovianski to plus-plus interesju Slavju jazik-beseda-klub, ale nigda ne vse-Slavju jazik :) ;)
Edited by Eugeniusx, Dec 7 2010, 11:14 AM.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
FYI, here is also a character count of the same page in Naučny Medžuslovjanski:

Code:
 

Total number of characters: 8458
Total number of letters: 7928
Number of different letters: 53

o 654x 8.25%
a 613x 7.73%
i 578x 7.29%
e 467x 5.89%
n 463x 5.84%
t 393x 4.96%
r 383x 4.83%
s 350x 4.41%
l 325x 4.10%
j 323x 4.07%
v 313x 3.95%
d 306x 3.86%
k 234x 2.95%
m 210x 2.65%
g 185x 2.33%
z 176x 2.22%
p 163x 2.06%
b 159x 2.01%
y 152x 1.92%
u 139x 1.75%
ě 119x 1.50%
ň 119x 1.50%
č 113x 1.43%
ų 100x 1.26%
č 72x 0.91%
h 67x 0.85%
ę 66x 0.83%
ž 63x 0.79%
š 59x 0.74%
ô 57x 0.72%
c 51x 0.64%
ľ 48x 0.61%
ě 41x 0.52%
é 38x 0.48%
ň 32x 0.40%
ý 27x 0.34%
ć 19x 0.24%
á 19x 0.24%
ť 19x 0.24%
f 18x 0.23%
í 13x 0.16%
ę 13x 0.16%
ó 12x 0.15%
đ 10x 0.13%
ď 7x 0.09%
ś 6x 0.08%
ř 4x 0.05%
ů 4x 0.05%
` 3x 0.04%


EDIT: And here are also the results for Wikipedia's Main Page in several Slavic languages (for comparison):

Code:
 

Russian:

и 467x 7.53%
о 459x 7.40%
а 458x 7.38%
е 422x 6.80%
н 368x 5.93%

Belarussian:

а 543x 13.40%
н 250x 6.17%
і 228x 5.63%
ы 194x 4.79%
к 190x 4.69%

Ukrainian:

а 519x 8.40%
о 506x 8.19%
і 436x 7.06%
р 381x 6.17%
н 353x 5.72%

Polish:

i 428x 9.17%
a 391x 8.38%
e 347x 7.44%
o 336x 7.20%
n 246x 5.27%

Czech:

o 562x 7.83%
e 514x 7.16%
a 492x 6.86%
i 427x 5.95%
n 394x 5.49%

Slovene:

a 391x 10.56%
i 374x 10.10%
e 317x 8.56%
o 291x 7.86%
n 222x 6.00%

Croatian:

a 462x 11.48%
i 423x 10.51%
o 307x 7.63%
e 286x 7.11%
n 256x 6.36%

Serbian:

и 512x 11.13%
а 476x 10.35%
е 380x 8.26%
о 370x 8.04%
н 250x 5.43%

Bulgarian:

и 582x 11.85%
а 534x 10.87%
е 418x 8.51%
о 380x 7.73%
н 363x 7.39%
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Dec 6 2010, 09:07 PM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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gossips
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Quote:
 
(b) dominacia o vostokju-Slavju i Polskju jaziki.
...
ale nigde vse-Slavju jazik

Lol. And how the "vse-Slavju jazik" should look like?

2Jan:
Quote:
 
And heck, if you think Russians won't understand TLSTY, then how on Earth can you expect people who are used to tlusty to understand TOLSTY?

Afaicr, I've suggested the solution, which will understand everyone - to change a syllabic -l- to -olu-, you've denied it as "we don't need 2 syllables when some languages don't have even 1" (well, not exactly, but you said something like that).
Since you've started this discussion again, I must mention, that it's still not a bad choice. I suggested to add one, you - to remove one. These choices are of the same level :D
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Moraczewski
 
I remember Drazen or some other BCSM speaker said that vlk is not that clear for BCSM speakers, but volk is more clear for those who has ever seen Slovene or Bulgarian.

Slovene or Macedonian, you mean. Bulgarian has вълк.

Gabriel
 
Traditionally, languages like Slovene, Slovak or Rusyn have been treated as most "central" Slavic languages, but the actual work on Slovianski showed in not a few respects it's actually Russian that's most in the middle. That's a fact, cope with it.

Sure, that's because Russian tends to be very conservative in terms of phonology. And sure, that will automatically mean that it is better represented phonetically than the (much more innovative) Southern languages. But when a more Southern solution actually has the majority, why wouldn't we follow them in that case?

Aquarius
 
Slovianski je rozumny kompromis medzxu slovjanofonami, a kompromisy trebujut zxertv. V rozumnyh granicah. Tutta zxertva ne je velika, dazxe, ja skazal by, zxe absolutno ne principialna.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. The overall syndrom WTF is something I, honestly speaking and with all due respect, wipe my zad with. If it's natural in Czech and Slovak, that means you can't call it some crazy idea!

Moraczewski
 
Yes, I may agree with TraT and even with TrT

In fact, if we REALLY want to follow votes, then we should have TraT, Tlat, TrT and TolT. Sure, I can live with that. It would make some sense to treat syllabic R and L in the same way, but it's nowhere written that we have to.

Wannabeme
 
I have an idea Just fallow Churchslavonic here and you wont miss anything.
In my oppinion schwa is a greet character and would conplete the function of those all Os and Es but we cannot use them in latin and thats the problem so we have to use Os and Es.

Well, it does occur to me that O and E already have too many different pronunciations. From this point of view Vojta's solution of writing T`rT and T`lT (TърT and TълT in Cyrillic) is really the best one. My only problem with that (but that's a matter of taste) is that I find it unaestetic to use non-alphanumeric characters as letters. That's why I'd rather simplify them to TrT and TlT anyway.

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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Eugeniusx
Dec 6 2010, 08:36 PM
To vsegda bil moia kritika o Slovianski: Slavianskju metoda-glosovanie produkovajt (a) "Frankensteinizm" a (b) dominacia o vostokju-Slavju i Polskju jaziki. To znacxit: Slovianski to plus-plus interesju Slavju jazik-beseda-klub, ale nigde ne vse-Slavju jazik :) ;)
Well now, you know as well as I do that this is nonsense. Just look at your own sentence:
- how many Slavic languages write "moia"?
- how many Slavic languages write "Slavju"?
- how many Slavic languages have the ending "-ovajt"?
- how many Slavic languages use "nigde" for "never" instead of "nowhere"?
- how many Slavic languages have constructions like "jazik-beseda-klub"?
- how many words here were actually not taken from Russian, except "plus-plus", which is Latin?
- how come juxtaposing "glos", "gorod" and "zlato" is anything else but frankensteinism?

If you want to achieve neutrality by using stuff that exists nowhere in Slavic, then you might as well propose Swahili!
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Moraczewski
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"Slovene or Macedonian, you mean. Bulgarian has вълк."
In any way вълк is closer to volk than vuk. So vuk speakers who know вълк will easily understand volk.
This was not my statement, somebody from BCSM told me that.

" TraT, Tlat, TrT and TolT."
this would be nice, I think.

"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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