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Flavourisation; Northern vs. Southern Slovianski
Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 12:16 PM (5,246 Views)
iopq
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Gabriel Svoboda
Dec 19 2010, 12:01 PM
Le Roi est mort, vive le Roi. Kroľ je mrtvi, da žive kraľ.
Funny because кроль means "freestyle swimming" or "crawl" in Russian
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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Do we still have Slovioski??? I thought we have already merged Slovioski with Slovianski to get our common Medžuslavjanski?
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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steeven
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Moraczewski
Dec 20 2010, 07:57 AM
Do we still have Slovioski??? I thought we have already merged Slovioski with Slovianski to get our common Medžuslavjanski?
No, we really do not (have Slovioski)

Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel Svoboda
Dec 19 2010, 12:01 PM
Quote:
 
Hmm, I'm missing the word СЛАДКИЙ here.


That's because Russian has also солод (malt, Slovianski slôd). Yes, сладкий probably is a more common word than солод, but in the list of doublets likewise there are probably words with the -olo-/-oro- variant "heavier" than the -la-/-ra- one.
Ah, fair enough!

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Not found? Probably that's because the Slovianski dictionary does have the compound, but not the original word pråzný "idle". Russian has ПРАЗДНЫЙ here. Probably instead of "pråznověrný" we should have "pråzdnověrný".


Ah, right then. Hence the "only TlaT, TraT" category now has 5 instances. This gives 49 changes for TraT/TlaT, 49 changes for TloT/TroT and 16 changes for ToroT/ToloT.

<makes mental note to add "pråzdnyj" to the dictionary>

Actually, I found a few words in the dictionary that didn't appear in your list. As far as I can tell:

only ORO/OLO:
blåto - болото
brådavica - бородавка
vlås - волос

only RA/LA:
-kråtno - -кратнo
nagråda - награда

not found in dictionary:
hlåpèc

And then we have the small category of orT/olT words. Since we've decided to give them the same treatment as TorT/TolT, we might as well mention them here:

#RO/#LO:
låkòť - локоть

#RA/#LA
råb - раб
råbota - работа
råzný - разныј

both #RO/#LO and #RA/#LA:
råst
råvný
råz-

All in all, it won't make much of a difference for the counting, I think.

Quote:
 
It's a major change, involving a lot of nostalgy, since TroT/TloT has been the feature of Slovianski for nearly five years - since its very beginning. It also made Slovianski unique among all other Slavic conlangs (Slovo, Glagolica, Novoslovienskij all use TlaT/TraT).

True that, I feel pretty much the same way. TroT/TloT has always been some kind of "trademark" of Slovianski, and I still believe the reasoning behind it was right. I'm sure I've been defending it more than anyone else. What finally made me change my mind is a combination of many things: that several people (including Igor and Andrej) had already made it clear that they actually wouldn't mind TraT; that there was quite some opposition against particular cases of TroT/TloT (like "roz-", "blogo-"); that I came to notice that Slovianski was indeed a bit too heavy on "o"; that I also noticed (and not just I) that Slovianski used Northern solutions even in cases where the Southern solution was not clearly in a minority; and most of all, that we are working on a merger with Slovioski and Novoslovienskij (Slovioski likes to have TraT at least in particular cases, NS has it always). And because this merger will surely have consequences for all three of them, I felt we might as well make this step in the direction of the others.

You're only wrong about one thing: Slovo actually had TroT/TloT. You should have a look at it once. That project is about as old as Slovio is, but it is strikingly similar to Slovianski Plus.

Quote:
 
But it has been shown it was them who was right, and me who was wrong.

I appreciate that very much, Gabriel. I don't think it can be said that we were wrong, really, just that we underestimated the value of TraT/TlaT a bit. Your approach with "changes" is a really interesting and convincing argument here!
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Dec 20 2010, 10:58 AM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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iopq
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pretty sure Russian has утроба and it's not *-or- it's actually *-ro-
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Whoops, you're right, that was a major brainfart. That's what happens when you write before having your first coffee!

I'm not sure what Common Slavic has, and I can't look it up here. So let's forget about vutroba/vutraba for now.
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Dec 20 2010, 10:59 AM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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Also oblako/oblak is one of the *-ol- words but NMS dictionary doesn't have it marked as such
the etymology is *ob-volkъ so oblåk is correct
I'm not sure why you didn't look at the Polish form and mark it as such

same thing for vlada which should be vlåda (also update владати, владети/владнути as well but not власны)
glava should be glåva unless you're treating it as a loan from OCS
glagol is also glågol
oblast' has the etymology of *ob-volstь so when you change власть then you have to change область to oblåst'
prêvladeňje same, change to prêvlådeňje
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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iopq
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Израwел is misspelled in the cyrillic version (as well as израwелски) I think it might be an issue with w instead of j or something since премиwера and премиwер-министер have the same issue

nagrađatì should nagråđatì
prazdnovatì should be pråzdnovatì
роздражливы should be more like роздразливы and роздражньенје should be more like роздраженje
hram should be hråm unless you consider that a loan from OCS
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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iopq
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so of course Gabriel got pretty big numbers for -oro-, -olo-, we didn't even list the instances where we loaned from OCS directly bypassing the Slovianski etymological rules!
Edited by iopq, Dec 22 2010, 09:17 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Dec 22 2010, 08:51 AM
Also oblako/oblak is one of the *-ol- words but NMS dictionary doesn't have it marked as such
the etymology is *ob-volkъ so oblåk is correct
Yep, thanks for pointing it out.

Quote:
 
same thing for vlada which should be vlåda (also update владати, владети/владнути as well but not власны)

Actually, in this case I had a good reason. Even Polish has władza, władać etc. So it seems kind of pointless for Slovianski to have *vlodža even if ALL Slavic languages agree about a. Mind, NMS does not necessarily have to be a faithful reconstruction of Proto-Slavic.

Quote:
 
glava should be glåva unless you're treating it as a loan from OCS
glagol is also glågol

Sure, I'll correct that. The word glagol/glogol doesn't exist in Polish, BTW.

Quote:
 
Израwел is misspelled in the cyrillic version (as well as израwелски) I think it might be an issue with w instead of j or something since премиwера and премиwер-министер have the same issue

Yeah, I'm afraid I've built in a bug in the transliterator. I'll look into that when I've time.

Quote:
 
hram should be hråm unless you consider that a loan from OCS

Hm, I'm inclined towards the latter. "Hrom" won't be understood better by anybody, I'm afraid.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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wannabeme
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iopq
Dec 22 2010, 08:51 AM
Also oblako/oblak is one of the *-ol- words but NMS dictionary doesn't have it marked as such
the etymology is *ob-volkъ so oblåk is correct
I'm not sure why you didn't look at the Polish form and mark it as such
Isnt oblak's etimology ob+vlak like from vleći, vlačiti - to drag
Edited by wannabeme, Dec 22 2010, 08:08 PM.
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iopq
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wannabeme
Dec 22 2010, 08:07 PM
iopq
Dec 22 2010, 08:51 AM
Also oblako/oblak is one of the *-ol- words but NMS dictionary doesn't have it marked as such
the etymology is *ob-volkъ so oblåk is correct
I'm not sure why you didn't look at the Polish form and mark it as such
Isnt oblak's etimology ob+vlak like from vleći, vlačiti - to drag
yeah it is, vlak comes from *volkъ
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 22 2010, 04:46 PM
iopq
Dec 22 2010, 08:51 AM

Quote:
 
same thing for vlada which should be vlåda (also update владати, владети/владнути as well but not власны)

Actually, in this case I had a good reason. Even Polish has władza, władać etc. So it seems kind of pointless for Slovianski to have *vlodža even if ALL Slavic languages agree about a. Mind, NMS does not necessarily have to be a faithful reconstruction of Proto-Slavic.
What do you mean all Slavic languages? Ukrainian has the correct володіти, володар, etc.
and Polish uses włodarz as well
Edited by iopq, Dec 23 2010, 01:48 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Dec 23 2010, 01:47 AM
What do you mean all Slavic languages? Ukrainian has the correct володіти, володар, etc.
and Polish uses włodarz as well
Hehe, I didn't know that. Probably Polish borrowed this from Czech, then.

But in the case of oblasť, I'm pretty sure no language actually has оболость or obłość or something.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 23 2010, 10:49 AM
iopq
Dec 23 2010, 01:47 AM
What do you mean all Slavic languages? Ukrainian has the correct володіти, володар, etc.
and Polish uses włodarz as well
Hehe, I didn't know that. Probably Polish borrowed this from Czech, then.

But in the case of oblasť, I'm pretty sure no language actually has оболость or obłość or something.
maybe we should mark some words like that as Church-Slavonicisms somehow
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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