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Flavourisation; Northern vs. Southern Slovianski
Topic Started: Dec 6 2010, 12:16 PM (5,245 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Moraczewski
 
iopq
 
let's solve this once and for all, make standard Slovianski have grad so that I can write grĺd in nauczny

I really dislike ô, it is very confusing for those who are familiar with Slovak.

I have analysed the whole thing and I am inclined to agree: let's have grad instead of grod, roz- instead of raz-, glava instead of glova. That will automatically make ĺ the logical choice in NMS.

Aquarius
 
iopq
 
Slovianski SHOULD be biased towards Russian/Polish/Ukrainian because those are the largest Slavic languages

Ja jesm absolutno ne soglosny. Vecxej, "dvojny" glosy ruskogo i polskogo uzxe demotivirujut drugih slovjanofonov tvoriti nasx jezyk.

Me neither. It is a fact that sometimes people complain about Slovianski being "too Northern", and they actually do have a point. If you look at the sound changes currently applied in Slovianski (http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/word_formation.html#vocabulary_patterns) you'll notice that except for one (ę > e) they are ALL identical to Russian (that was even worse when we still had ę > ja and infinitives on -ť). Grammar is similar to East and West Slavic as well. And even in the case of vocabulary it should be said that South Slavic is very often outvoted by a coalition of Polish, Ukrainian and Belarussian, either with Russian, Czech/Slovak or both.

We need to correct that, because Aquarius is right: looking at the active members of this forum, it is quite clear that the South is gravely underrepresented (thank God we've Dražen and Pedza!). That has been the case from the very beginning, and that might also explain this Northern Slavic look-and-feel of Slovianski. This is something we NEED to correct. If Dražen says that many things we have always considered normal look in fact completely alien to a Serb, we better listen to him. That doesn't mean we suddenly have to change everything, because the voting mechanism is just (and in fact, South Slavic also shouldn't complain too much with 10% of the population, and 1/3 of the votes). But there are things that we actually CAN change.

I've been working a lot on the idea of flavourisation lately. The idea: just like there's no reason why a Pole should use "grad" and "glava" in contacts with Russians, there isn't any reason why a Czech should use "grod" and "glova" in contacts with South Slavs. NMS makes it possible to manipulate these things a little. What follows is that it should be possible to manipulate the dictionary in such way, that it can give the results that are desirable in a specific situation.

So how to flavourise? The number of possible combinations between individual Slavic languages is endless, and dealing with all of them is a dead end. That's why I started with a premise: that for any variety of the language to be truly Interslavic, it should encompass at least three of the six neighbouring groups (RU - UK/BE - PL - CZ-SK - SL/SH - MK/BG). In other words, we take a vote not by including language, but by excluding groups. This give eighteen different combinations: six for each combination of three neighbouring groups, and the same for groups of four and five.

You can see my ideas (and my analysis) here: http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/flavorizacija.html.

In short, there is no need to deal with every single combination of these 18. Most of them are in fact very similar to each other, and there's no point in working out a solution for a difference that is hardly distinguishable in a text. What is clear though is that two major subgroups can be distinguished: a more Northern-oriented one (centered around Polish, Ukrainian and Belarussian) and a more Southern-oriented one (centered around South Slavic). For both flavours, I have calculated a set of rules for both of them. In a way, it is just a more complicated way of taking a vote than the regular voting system; the difference is that it is not based on individual languages, but on the majority solutions for subgroups.

Standard Slovianski should of course be somewhere in the middle between these two flavours. But surprise surprise! Standard Slovianski is almost identical to the Northern flavour! Look here:
Code:
 

______________ Standard _ North ____ South

infinitive____ ti _______ ť ________ ti
y_____________ y ________ y ________ i
ĺ_____________ o ________ o ________ a
ę_____________ e ________ ja _______ e
soft cons.____ 5 ________ 7 ________ 2
ň_____________ o ________ o ________ e
syll. r_______ or/er ____ or/er ____ r
syll. l_______ ol _______ ol _______ l
tj/dj_________ č/dž _____ č/ž ______ č/dž


And THIS is actually what convinces me that we should adjust standard Slovianski a bit. Because there two cases here where Standard Slovianski follows the Northern model, even in cases where the Southern model wins in terms of votes.

  • TraT/TraT instead of TroT/TroT. This solution has a slight majority anyway. It remains true that o has better compromise qualities, but the question remains how important this really is, especially if you consider that the prefix "roz-/raz-" is good for some 40% of all occurrences.
  • TrT/TlT instead of TorT/TolT. This is an ever better candidate. Of course, TorT/TolT receives most votes if you count individual languages (East Slavic, Slovene, Macedonian) and o is already used as a filler vowel anyway, but on the other hand, it's never said that a filler vowel is needed here at all; most languages do not treat these sequences the same way as they treat ъ. It can be argued that TrT/TlT is actually a better compromise between all different solutions than TorT/TolT, and it won't decrease understandability any more for East Slavs than it will increase it for the rest. This is also the solution chosen by Novoslovienskij (where it is written `r/`l), and here I think Vojta has made a better choice than we have. I only wouldn't write this ` (for the same reason why we got rid of apostrophes). If you ask me, mrtvy, vlk and plny are clear enough.


If both recommendations are adopted, then Slovianski will have y (919 occurrences in ca. 5500 dictionary entries), ť/ď/ř (284) and ъ > o (215) from the Northern variant, and ę > e (314), ĺ > a (301), syllabic r/l (194), đ > dž (68) and ś/ź > s/z (30) from the Southern variant. This would restore the balance somewhat. Also, both changes would bring Slovianski somewhat closer to Novoslovienskij.

Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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mtrvy, vlk and plny are not clear
they are clear phonetically when spoken, but when a Russian reads it they're going to go wtf? vik? wtf is a piny?

the convention of phonetic l or r is something that is not at all familiar
the same way that I wasn't at all against removing s' and z' because they were not present in most languages (despite having enough votes)
Edited by iopq, Dec 6 2010, 12:34 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I'm not used to syllabic liquids any more than you are, but to me they are perfectly clear. It's quite easy: if a liquid is surrounded by two consonants, then have it preceded by schwa, and Bob's your uncle. BTW this also how it should be pronounced IMO.

The problem with -or/er/ol- is that it is a lousy compromise.

Slavic reflexes of syllabic L/Ľ are: -ol-, -l-, -el-, -il-, -ul-, -lu-, -lo-, -u-, -ow-, -`l-, -l`-.
Slavic reflexes of syllabic R/Ŕ are: -or-, -ar-, -'eř-, -r-, -`r-, -r`-.

Mind that -ol- has 3 votes, but -or/er- only 2, while -`r- or -r- actually have 3 votes. The Polish vote, -ar- in most cases, can hardly be treated as a vote for -or/er- either. Given the many different reflexes in Polish of syllabic L, the Polish vote goes to -l- rather than to -ol-.

So what you have here is a solution that is preferable to all non-East Slavs except (and only in the case of L) the Slovenes and the Macedonians.

Quote:
 
they are clear phonetically when spoken, but when a Russian reads it they're going to go wtf? vik? wtf is a piny?

Well, given the fact that at present our sound changes are for about 90% similar to Russian, I think there's little reason to complain here. If a South Slav would have written that, the answer would have been: "Don't complain, you are already overrepresented in the vote anyway". But what good does it do if the result almost always leads to bias towards the North? I'm not talking about making Slovianski Southern-oriented, mind, only about restoring the balance between West, East and South. And these are cases where we did NOT pick the solution with most votes! -OL- has more votes than -L-, but -R- has more votes than -OR/ER-. Treating them alike would have certain advantages, that's why I'd say -OR/ER/OL- and -R/L- end more or less ex aequo, with a slight tendency towards the latter anyway. Because the North is already overrepresented in other fields, at least this is a good place where we can add some Southern flavour, too.

Besides, are Cyrillic мртвы, плны and влк really that hard to figure out? If anything, it's always possible to write мъртвы, пълны and вълк instead.

For the rest, removing ś and ź is hardly a sacrifice, given the number of occurrences: 24 in the case of ś (mostly words with vś-) and 6 in the case of ź.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Aquarius

Jan! Ty predlagasx tezxku sistemu izcxislenja. Ale s rezultatom ja soglosny: 1) blago vmesto blogo, 2) vlk vmesto volk, 3) s'/z' - v grob!

Ale sxitati mozxno vecxej prosto (s tim zxe rezultatom): 10 jezykov imejut po 1 glosu. Za to juzxny slovjany imeli by 40% glosov, a ne 33% kak tutcxas.

Igor! Ruski mozxe pisati vlk, ale govoriti volk (s akcentom, ;) ). Jego drugi slovjany izrozumejut.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Aquarius
Dec 6 2010, 01:24 PM
Ale sxitati mozxno vecxej prosto (s tim zxe rezultatom): 10 jezykov imejut po 1 glosu. Za to juzxny slovjany imeli by 40% glosov, a ne 33% kak tutcxas.
No, I don't think we should do that. It's important that we treat language FAMILIES and subgroups equally. And I think that 33.3% of the votes is more than enough for South Slavic, it's just that in doubtful cases we might give it the benefit of the doubt, especially given the fact that South Slavic is outvoted by the rest more often than not.

Of course, our voting system is the result of a random choice. We include languages with more than 1 mln. speakers and exclude those with less. We might as well have thought of a way to include Sorbians etc. as well, but we have chosen not to. Just like we have chosen not to include Church Slavonic - in spite of the fact that it has some excellent Interslavic qualities.

This voting system is of course much more complicated than the normal system and I surely wouldn't use it for coining words. But it gives some interesting insights about fundamental things like sound changes.

On the other hand, I have also thought about a mini-vote, which would be more practical for vocabulary creation: instead of 1 million speakers, we set a limit of some 8-10 million speakers. Practically it means that we use the biggest language of each subgroup, namely:
* Russian
* Ukrainian
* Polish
* Czech
* Serbo-Croatian
* Bulgarian

Quote:
 
Jan! Ty predlagasx tezxku sistemu izcxislenja. Ale s rezultatom ja soglosny: 1) blago vmesto blogo, 2) vlk vmesto volk, 3) s'/z' - v grob!

Ś i Ź uže sųt v grobě, tak že o tom daže ne treba nam besědovati. :)

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Aquarius

Jan
 
It's important that we treat language FAMILIES and subgroups equally.
Tako zxe logicxno. Ale ja scxitaju, zxe granicy medzxu grupami iluzorny, i za to jezyki scxitati bylo by vecxej cxestno. Ale sporiti ne budu, ibo obadva sistema izcxislenja bez malogo rovno odrazxajut realnost'. Rozlicxja dazxe ne je minimalny, a ne principialny. Ja akceptuju tvoji predlozxenija, neha druge govorijut.
Edited by Aquarius, Dec 6 2010, 03:59 PM.
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iopq
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Aquarius
Dec 6 2010, 02:14 PM
Jan
 
It's important that we treat language FAMILIES and subgroups equally.
Tako zxe logicxno. Ale ja scxitaju, zxe granicy medzxu grupami iluzorny, i za to jezyki scxitati bylo by vecxej cxestno. Ale sporiti ne budu, ibo obedve sistemy izcxislenja bez malogo rovno odrazxajut realnost'. Rozlicxja dazxe ne je minimalny, a ne principialny. Ja akceptuju tvoji predlozxenija, neha druge govorijut.
ok, there's 4 East Slavic languages, and about 20 south slavic languages
it depends on which country declares itself independent next
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 6 2010, 01:20 PM
Well, given the fact that at present our sound changes are for about 90% similar to Russian, I think there's little reason to complain here. If a South Slav would have written that, the answer would have been: "Don't complain, you are already overrepresented in the vote anyway". But what good does it do if the result almost always leads to bias towards the North? I'm not talking about making Slovianski Southern-oriented, mind, only about restoring the balance between West, East and South. And these are cases where we did NOT pick the solution with most votes!
hold on there, you really went in the south direction by making it pet' for five and not pjet'
Cz, Pl, East Slavic all have mandatory softening before ę or at least j when softening is not possible
Slovak has pet' with a special character, but piaty

so hard ę is a South-Slavic only feature (it depends on dialect too, since western Bulgarian dialects still to this day say p'et)
Edited by iopq, Dec 6 2010, 03:45 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yes, that is true. I would never pronounce ę as a "hard e". Likewise, I wouldn't pronounce ě hard either (which happens only in Slovene, Serbian and Macedonian, and only in certain conditions in some of the other languages). If you look at the majority solutions, then e and č should be pronounced hard, ě and ę should be pronounced soft.

So yes, pęť should be pronouned like pjeť.

The reason why we don't write pęť, pěť or pjeť is of course that it can't easily be transliterated into Cyrillic. What else would you propose? Пѧть? Пҍть? Пѥть? Пьеть? Пјеть? Піеть?

EDIT: I should hasten to add that this is not at all a concession in the direction of South Slavic. After all, this e might as well be treated as a concession in the direction of Russian and Polish, where they are all soft.
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Dec 6 2010, 04:21 PM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 6 2010, 12:16 PM
If you ask me, mrtvy, vlk and plny are clear enough.
....This would restore the balance somewhat. Also, both changes would bring Slovianski somewhat closer to Novoslovienskij.

VLK | SLNCE | PLN-

Steeven wrote:
March 14, 2010 @ Post #56 - Syllabic L and R
http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/single/?p=73355&t=494416
So, why not choose the "NO VOWEL" option for these words?
PLN-
SLNCE
VLK

Then neither IGOR's Russians nor anyone else will be forced to speak worse than they already speak!! They can make their vowels different each time!!! (in their own minds)

Steeven wrote:
March 14, 2010 @ Post #58 - Syllabic L and R
http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/single/?p=73357&t=494416

"The primary purpose of Slovianski is maximum intelligibility for all Slavs. Slovianski achieves this goal by incorporating the commonalities of the living Slavic languages. ... When commonalities are absent or less obvious, we build a compromise...."

Clearly, VLK, PLN and SLNCE are the best compromise for maximum intelligibility for all Slavs.

;)


Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
BTW there's one more thing that I forget to mention: ň in NMS is already a bit overused. It fulfills the role of:
1. filler vowel (reflex of ъ): pěsňk (gen. pěska)
2. the schwa in syllabic liquids (which is not exactly the same thing): pňlný, bňrzo
3. in cases where West Slavic has hard e and East Slavic has o, mostly endings like -ňgo, -ňm etc.
4. in the first person plural of verbs: dělamň

All these things need to be taken into account in various transliteration processes anyway. For example BCSM has a, u/r and o in these cases.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
steeven
Dec 6 2010, 04:51 PM
"The primary purpose of Slovianski is maximum intelligibility for all Slavs. Slovianski achieves this goal by incorporating the commonalities of the living Slavic languages. ... When commonalities are absent or less obvious, we build a compromise...."

Clearly, VLK, PLN and SLNCE are the best compromise for maximum intelligibility for all Slavs.

Indeed. Here I have to admit that you were right and I was wrong (stick that one in your pocket! :D)

Because it's true: MRTVY is the majority solution anyway, and PLNY... well, among all the combinations of consonant + L, L + consonant or just plain L or plain U, this seems like the fairest compromise.

And those who don't like the looks of those words can always write M`RTVY and P`LNY, as Vojta's Novoslovienskij does.

EDIT: And they can also keep writing MERTVY and POLNY, but that will be a matter of adding Northern flavour then. Mind, it's not that those forms suddenly will be forbidden or something. It's just that our Standard (unflavoured) Slovianski should neither be biased towards the North nor towards the South.

Likewise, I have been arguing a lot in favour of "krova" instead of "krava". And I notice that it doesn't really seems to convince people. Which, in turn, convinces me that perhaps "krava" is better indeed.
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Dec 6 2010, 05:14 PM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Dec 6 2010, 05:06 PM
Here I have to admit that you were right and I was wrong...
Thanks, but I was merely the messenger.
If you go to the first link post I cite, you will see that my posting was as a result of my polling my kolegi. In fact, that poll elicited the largest response I ever had from a poll from my comradi (altho they were very emphatic about "blAgo" versus "blOgo" :P ).
The rest of the time they generally do as they please. I monitor their word-form choices, collecting them in my mental filing cabinet - and then offer "my suggestions" here.
I acknowledge your approach is a systematic one.
My feedback and suggestions come from real "field" writing, which I believe will ultimately prove true.
The only shortcoming from my source is that it does not include Eastern speakers (except for 3 Bulgarians ~ & that only if you wish to classify Bulgarian as Eastern). So when Moraczewski or Igor take issue with my suggestions, I have to listen - because I'm so bombarded with Southern and Western perspectives.
:$
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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steeven
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Having noted that, I will say that both Moraczewski and Igor have stated that the "vowel-less word-forms" will confuse Russian speakers (& Moraczewski has been very emphatic on this point previously).
Personally, I do not see how it can be that confusing; but...the Russian weltanschauung is different, as is each of ours. ^o)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Aquarius

Ja jesm takozxe ruski, ale myslim inak. Zato ne trevozxij(te) se.
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