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Peach, Carrot; fruit vegetable
Topic Started: Oct 6 2010, 04:24 PM (987 Views)
steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Aug 19 2010, 02:32 PM
Quote:
 
Quote:
 
peach - breskva

All languages have the word "Persian" here, in various stages of mutilation: R persik, U-B persik, P brjoskvinja, Cz broskev, Slovak broskinja, Ser b(r)eskva, Sloven breskev, Bul praskova, Mac praska. The result of voting is proska.

This is an interesting one! You know, I took the vote as well, and my conclusion was breskva! :)
But, I have to admit: my Polish-Ukrainian dictionary gives "breskynja", while "persyk" seems indeed to be much more common. So let's take a look again:
RU - persik
BE - persik
UK - persyk
PL - brzoskwinia
CZ - broskev
SK - broskynja
SL - breskev
BCMS - breskva
MK - praska
BG - praskova
If we start dismounting the word, this is what we get:
1. First letter: p 3, b 3
2. -rV- 4, -Vr- 2
3. The vowel in 2: e 3, a 1, o 1, jo 1
4: -s(i)k-: -sk- 4, -sik 2
5: -v-? Yes 3, no 3
6: Final -a? Yes 3, no 3
7: Gender: f. 4, m. 2
Considerations:
1. Pres- is easier than pros- for both the bres- guys and the pers- guys (3 votes), equally good for the pras- guys (1 vote).
2. Polish brzoskwinia is a perfectly regular reflex of persica vinea, the o being the result of Polish umlaut (like berza > brzoza). It would have been a different story if Polish had had *broskwinia, but brzos- is more a vote for bres- than for bros-.
3. -v- happens in half of the votes. It is easier to think something out than to think something in, so in cases like this I'd rather keep it.
4. Keeping it without -a would make it one of those inconvenient words like krov, merkov etc. Better add -a like PL/SK/BCMS and BG do.

Based on the above, I suggest PRESKVA. It is IMO the best compromise.
PEACH

Dictionary still shows "breskva"
vs "PRESKVA"

Maybe put on your "TO-DO LIST" for change? ..... :D
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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gossips
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"Preskva? What the hell does that mean?" - I'd have thought if I saw this word for the first time without yours explanation =)

If you like this frankenshteinish way, why not "presikva" or something? It has "sik" cluster in it as well as "preskva" has "v". Anyway, preskva is not understandable for Russian, if he doesn't already know "breskva". Anyway, i don't like presikva or preska or whatever obtained in such a way.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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steeven
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gossips
Oct 6 2010, 05:03 PM
"Preskva? What the hell does that mean?" - I'd have thought if I saw this word for the first time without yours explanation =)

If you like this frankenshteinish way, why not "presikva" or something? It has "sik" cluster in it as well as "preskva" has "v". Anyway, preskva is not understandable for Russian, if he doesn't already know "breskva". Anyway, i don't like presikva or preska or whatever obtained in such a way.
Gossips,
Jan offers the argument above for "preskva"

Do you have an argument counter to that other than "...i don't like presikva or preska or whatever obtained in such a way?"

:o
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Right. Personally, I'm not a fan of Frankensteinian words or something, but here we have a case of one word choosing a different direction in virtually every language. In such a situation, we don't really have another option than picking some kind of middle solution. "Preskva" is of course not the only possible solution, but I'd say it's as close as you can get to the prototype, run through the regular Slovianski sound changes (which is also what most natlangs do). F.ex. b- is obviously an innovation.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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gossips
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That your new way of word construction is very strange, making a word by a voting for every single letter does not lead to the homogenization of the word for its better understandability, it leads to the creation of such mutants as this preska (i still can't even understand, why there was -v- included, when it shouldn't). And i think, it rather will greatly reduce recognition and understanding of this word by any of those, who are around this middle solution.
Quote:
 
but here we have a case of one word choosing a different direction in virtually every language.

Then we just should not use it. Like with any other word, which differs from lang to lang. We can use adoption instead from Latin, Greek, English or even German. Or we can cut some votes. If we would cut East, we'll probable get smth like "broskva"; West - "presik"; South - "perskev". Last two I can understand, the first one i can learn, and none of it looks so unnatural, as preskva.

Edited by gossips, Oct 6 2010, 07:06 PM.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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gossips
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Quote:
 
and none of it looks so unnatural, as preskva.

Well, perskev is really strange too... Damn.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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wannabeme
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Breska?
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
gossips
Oct 6 2010, 06:51 PM
Or we can cut some votes. If we would cut East, we'll probable get smth like "broskva"; West - "presik"; South - "perskev". Last two I can understand, the first one i can learn, and none of it looks so unnatural, as preskva.

The funny thing is, if you merge those three, you'd end up with "preskva" anyway.

Honestly, I can't see why "preskva" would look unnatural, while "breskva" is perfectly natural. Sure, you can kick out the "v" and have preska, but let me assure you that for a Pole, the "v" is quite essential for making the whole thing understandable. Like I said, I'm not a big fan of this approach either, but I'm afraid that in this case all the alternatives are even worse.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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gossips
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Quote:
 
but let me assure you that for a Pole, the "v" is quite essential for making the whole thing understandable.

Vice versa for a Russian (and probably for every other East Slav). But even "preska" is too strange to be recognized as "персик" immediately, and if I see -v- here, it becomes almost impossible. So if you want to make this world more understandable not only for BCS+SL speakers, you may cut East from this voting, because, I think, "preskva" or "broskva" are equal for us, we have to learn it =(

Quote:
 
Breska?

2wannabeme: quite fair, if we count Ukrainian archaic брескиня too, but the problem with its understandability is still here.
Edited by gossips, Oct 7 2010, 10:28 AM.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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wannabeme
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Well, if we take breskinja at least Ukrainians are going to know what it means and maybe a lot of Russians who live in Ukraina. I am shure that other Slavs would understand breskinja too.
But I dont like preska nor preskva not anything with p. It is clear that heare we cannot increase the understandability for Russians not decreasing it for other Slavs.
Besides this word is nothing special, we have a sea of such words that southslavs will have to learn.
So best choise in my opinion, breskva or breskinja to maximize the field of understability to Ukraine.
Edited by wannabeme, Oct 7 2010, 11:09 AM.
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gossips
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Sorry, I can't say, how often this word is used in Ukraine. Maybe Igor could.
The last time when I was in the market there, I didn't pay attention to how they called peaches. So if it's used widely, i guess, it's actually not a bad choice for us.
Quote:
 
But I dont like preska nor preskva not anything with p. It is clear that heare we cannot increase the understandability for Russians

It's not only about Russians, if you won't include some other choices, the outcome of this Jan's voting method would be understandable for us.
Edited by gossips, Oct 7 2010, 11:34 AM.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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achkasov
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Too bad we don't have a “q”, if so we could end up with smth like:
prsq or brsq

However i think there is another way: lat. Prunus persica — en. Persian plum — slovianski Persijska sliva
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Moraczewski
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Persijska sliva is as unclear for us as breskva is ;)
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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nonik

better adopted already existing words, than created new one.
somebody will have to learn, but then can use it in country where it is spoken already.
Edited by nonik, Nov 19 2010, 11:54 AM.
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bandziol20
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breskynja / breskva / breskev
what do you have for 'carrot' ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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