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i/y distinction
Topic Started: Mar 21 2007, 07:33 AM (2,330 Views)
wannabeme
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In the system where we dont really use "automatic softening" y is kind of useless because this would mean that i is actualy "ji".
If we have "ji" than we could also have "je" for e, and also introduce soft a,o,u. But then why we have ľi and ľe льи, лье?
Yugoslavian L is not the same. Every Serbian L sounds like "dark Russian L" and LJ is pronounced the same as Italian gl.
Croatians and Slovenians have L like Germans and LJ the same as Serbs.
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Radonescu
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To my mind, it's the best to have an auto-softening I (to make a clear distinction from Y), but a generally non-softening E. Also, a softening E is allowed for Russian speakers.
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Moraczewski
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I would make I always softening, but I don't see any reason to make E optionally softening. Russian CAN do without. Well, in fast speech Russian accent will be characterised by soft E sometimes, but that's not the matter. The reason why I would prefer E always hard, is that words with nasal E should sound hard: peť (five) vs. pěti (to sing).
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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wannabeme
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Yeah, it is obvious that every of us is trying to push in the feature that his language posseses.
I really dont know. If we say that -i is an automatic softness-maker than the whole system is interruped.
Because what would be the difference between li and ľi and le and ľe?
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Radonescu
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Quote:
 
li and ľi


So let's just suggest, that such written combinations as t'i, d'i, l'i are useless, incorrect and should never be used in writing :P
Really. Very few people could hear (and understand!) the difference between t'i and ti. Let us not forget that our "target audience" aren't professional linguists, but 400 million people with diverse phonetic notions.

Agree that E should be made always-hard.

Also having together an unsoftening I, an I-after-a-softened-consonant and an Y would be a nightmare!
Edited by Radonescu, Nov 25 2010, 05:23 AM.
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iopq
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Moraczewski
Nov 25 2010, 12:20 AM
I would make I always softening, but I don't see any reason to make E optionally softening. Russian CAN do without. Well, in fast speech Russian accent will be characterised by soft E sometimes, but that's not the matter. The reason why I would prefer E always hard, is that words with nasal E should sound hard: peť (five) vs. pěti (to sing).
I don't think any language has this distinction
if anything, nasal e is softer in general than e

unless you're implying that jat' has to be softer than both of them, which some languages do have
Edited by iopq, Nov 25 2010, 05:27 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Radonescu
Nov 24 2010, 09:07 PM
To my mind, it's the best to have an auto-softening I (to make a clear distinction from Y), but a generally non-softening E. Also, a softening E is allowed for Russian speakers.
Yep yep, agreed on both accounts.

Quote:
 
Because what would be the difference between li and ľi and le and ľe?

There won't be if the apostrophe from the L is automatically swallowed by the I. Therefore pisateľ > pisateli.

It's all very simple, really. The basic ending is -y. Both ľy and ľi automatically become li, and Bob's your uncle.

With e it's a bit harder. We cannot just assume that e contains a softener by definition, because that solution exists in Russian only (and in a certain way, Polish). We cannot assume all various e's are hard by definition either, because that solution exists nowhere at all. Therefore we need to distinguish them somehow. Looking a various e's:

- e (е): majority hard
- č (ь): majority hard (I think)
- é (-ые): always hard
- ě (ѣ): majority soft
- ę (ѧ): majority soft

So we basically have two possibilities for expressing a basic hard/soft distinction: either by using le vs. ľe/lje/lie or by using le vs. lě.

The simplest solution (and the one I've proposed for Slovianto) is simply assuming Central European L and not making any hard/soft distinctions at all.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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wannabeme
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Quote:
 
Bob's your uncle


I really have an uncle whose name's Bob :)

I would really be somewhat anxious about applying Y and I by Ukrainians, Southslavs and Belorussians too.
In BCS and Slovenian it is somewhat other story

писатель писательи
писал (м.јед.) писали (м.мн)
писала (ж.јед.) писалы (ж.мн.)

But you have merged льи and ли because Northern Slavs soften after I automaticly but it is not the case with protoslavic.

Look
писатель писательи
писал писали (here L is hard in the sing. why would you soften it in the plural?)
I mean, I am not against softening when you speak it. Its ok, but in writing its not the same.
But I am not agianst Y. I am only sowhat confused about its usage.
Edited by wannabeme, Nov 25 2010, 10:50 PM.
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Radonescu
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because most Slavs can't distinguish lji from li - it's basically the same for them (especially in Czech, Slovak, Polak and Ukrainian)
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iopq
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actually Ukrainian does distinguish писателі - writers from писали - they wrote
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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wannabeme
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iopq
Nov 26 2010, 01:02 AM
actually Ukrainian does distinguish писателі - writers from писали - they wrote
But "i" is in Ukrainian ji and not i :) They have special characters for je and ji, as well es for ja, ju.
But Slovianski does not have the system ja, ju, ji, je (only one character) vs a, u, i, e.
And from the same reason we introduced "y" and nasals we should keep distinguishing i and ji buy the birth place.
So if we use the system like Ukrainian than we should have ja, ju, ji, je characters (jo wouldnt exist because every jo is automaticly je exept in foreign words like Johan)

Ukrainian has писати and not писатi but we cannot have pisaty.
So practicly Ukrainian does support our current system where ы, и = и and i = ˇi (beside ě). Just like e = e and є =ˇe.
If you want system я,ю,є,i instead of ьа, ьу, ье, ьи I am fine but why would you have half so and half so.
Isnt this a systematic languag which would be easy to learn because it doesnt make exceptions where they are not "really" needed or because people are lazy to write one character more.

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Radonescu
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Quote:
 
actually Ukrainian does distinguish писателі - writers from писали - they wrote


but Ukrainian -ли is -ly and not -li!

Despite Ukrainian has a similar orthography to Russian it's quite confusing for those unaquainted:

Ukr. "и" = Slovianski "y" or Rus. "ы"
Ukr. "і" = Slovianski softening "i" or Russian "и" (although the Russian counterpart not always softens the preceding the consonant)


I'm totally for the Serbian system (all that ja, ju, je stuff). The East Slav orthography with additional characters (я, ю, є) would be ambiguous.
Edited by Radonescu, Nov 26 2010, 01:54 AM.
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wannabeme
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Quote:
 
but Ukrainian -ли is -ly and not -li!


Ukrainian -ли, ни, ти, ди, ри = ли, ни, ти, ди, ри or лы, ны, ты, ды, ры because UA ы = и, и = и and ьи = i (and ѣ = i )

И једин Украинец буде знати да и треба заменити с једним и а i с једним ьи.

Јако ли ви предполажете имати я,ю,є,і тогда буде краснејше али тогда и латиница буде следити те промени и не буде ľa, ňa но lja, nja.
Сјак ми имамо једин правилни и легко розумливи систем, ктори, до души, не јест најкраснејши али зато практични и аналогни.
Edited by wannabeme, Nov 26 2010, 02:34 AM.
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Radonescu
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The question was whether to be or not to be we need in Slovianski those softening consonants before i ;)
IMO, strongly not, and AFAIK Jan has the same point of view
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iopq
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Radonescu
Nov 26 2010, 01:50 AM
Quote:
 
actually Ukrainian does distinguish писателі - writers from писали - they wrote


but Ukrainian -ли is -ly and not -li!

Despite Ukrainian has a similar orthography to Russian it's quite confusing for those unaquainted:

Ukr. "и" = Slovianski "y" or Rus. "ы"
Ukr. "і" = Slovianski softening "i" or Russian "и" (although the Russian counterpart not always softens the preceding the consonant)


I'm totally for the Serbian system (all that ja, ju, je stuff). The East Slav orthography with additional characters (я, ю, є) would be ambiguous.
not really, Ukr. лиса = Ru. лиса "fox"
лыса гора = "bald mountain"

Ukr. и is not pronounced the same way as Ru. or Pl. ы/y either, it's more fronted
and the л is not actually hard before it

also і sometimes doesn't soften, a lot of people pronounce the word слів < словъ without softening the л (but not hard either), like the way they would pronounce слив, just with a different vowel

to me, слів in Ukr. is not pronounced the same as слив in Russian
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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