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i/y distinction
Topic Started: Mar 21 2007, 07:33 AM (2,331 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Methinks that the audible difference between i and y is of far greater importance than the question whether k/g/h would be softened or not. And its just a fact that a vast majority of the languages that make this distinction have ki/gi/hi and not ky/gy/hy. When I see "slovjansky" I tend to pronounce it the Ukrainian way, which quite obviously is a minority solution. Besides, even if the velars are indeed somewhat softened, this will definitely not lead to any kind of misunderstanding. And a soft k before i still has a lot more votes than ky-pronounced-the-Ukrainian-way.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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iopq
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if you were Gabriel, you'd pronounce it slovjanski
-sky or -ski doesn't even matter

what is the pronunciation of y?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Nov 16 2010, 03:58 PM
That is, if you assume that ę should be pronounced nasally. As far as I am concerned, that's not the case. This character represents something that become [ɛn], [ɛm], [ɛ~] in Polish, "ja" in East Slavic, "e" in South Slavic, and sometimes "ja", "a", "ä", "ě" in Czech and Slovak. So the best pronunciation would be something like [ʲć]. "ę" is just a spelling convention based on history, we might as well write "jćzyk".
I want to remark that while TODAY the nasal ę has, perhaps, all but disappeared from Polish, I do very much recall my great-grandfather, with his deep basso timbre, saying "język" with what I could only call a very nasalised "ɛn" - which he also mirrored in his pronunciation of "się".
His wife and his daughter (my grandmother), insist that the nasalised sounds carried on in South-Eastern Poland longer than anywhere else in Poland.
I would appreciate hearing some feedback from Polish speakers familiar with dialects? :D
Edited by steeven, Nov 17 2010, 01:42 AM.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Nov 17 2010, 01:35 AM
what is the pronunciation of y?
I'd say anything between [ i ] and [ 1 ] ("Russian" y).

As for Polish -ą: nowadays, it pronounced [E] by most people when finally. AFAIK that's the case in Southeast Poland as well. About 2 years ago, we had a nanny from Jarosław, but except for some South-specific vocabulary ("na pole" instead of "na dwór", for example), I can't really say here Polish was substantially different from my wife's, here in Central Poland. People from Kraków sound a lot weirder to me, to tell you the truth.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Moraczewski
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Why can't we just say that Slovianski doesn't have k' as phoneme and it will solve everything: no matter how you pronounce ki you won't be misunderstood.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Exactly. All in all, it doesn't really make much of a difference at all.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Kozica
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steeven-> dialects are rare in modern polish. There are no much examples from IJzeren Jan's "na pole" and "na dwór". Many people say, hear and write "jenzyk", "sie", "maużeństwo" instead of "jezyk", "się" and "małżeństwo" or "idoł" instead of "idą". Not "wątroba" but "wontroba" etc, etc

iopq-> the pronunciation of "y" is voice of litte hiccup

so difference between "sky" "ski" is "sk<hiccup>" and "ski"
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iopq
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Kozica
Nov 20 2010, 01:53 PM
iopq-> the pronunciation of "y" is voice of litte hiccup

so difference between "sky" "ski" is "sk<hiccup>" and "ski"
*stares at the screen*
*closes thread*
*comes back a few days later, stares at the screen again, again in puzzlement*

what does this even mean?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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gossips
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Oh, lol, you're a poet!
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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Radonescu
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Sup, guys!
I think you know not worse than me that the difference of usage "i" vs "y" is dictated by nothing else than history.
If we collect all words from all Slav languages where i\y distinction is made - you can have both "-i" or "-y" ending in the plural, you can have equally both them in the adjectives.
For e.g.

Russian:
отцы - глазки
красный - синенький

So, IMO, we can make such a simple rule: in adjectives\plural endings we always use -y, except when preceeded k\g\h. Hence, "Slovjanski", but "dobry"

And additionaly: the consonant L is never followed by Y, but rather I (because two parallel pronounciations of L exists in Slavic languages and making L not preceeding Y will nulify those).
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steeven
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One of the reasons we distinguished originally the adjectival endings in Slovioski was ... just for that reason - so that people would recognise adjectives by their distinctive endings (here I am addressing the broader need of non-Slavic speakers, which I know many of you don't give a hoot about, but I do).
Thus, up until yesterday, Slovioski used the masculine adjectival ending of "-ij"
These have now been changed to "-y".

But plural of masculine and feminine nouns remains "-i" and neuter, "-a"
I would urge that these remain as such.
B)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Radonescu
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The main argument behind using "-y" in masculine\feminine plural is that AFAIK all Slav languages having i\y distinction put "-y" in plural endings. Except g\k\h, as was said before.

But for the sake of simplicity, yes, only "-i" in M\F plural is a better choice.
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Moraczewski
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Radonescu
Nov 24 2010, 05:04 AM

And additionaly: the consonant L is never followed by Y, but rather I (because two parallel pronounciations of L exists in Slavic languages and making L not preceeding Y will nulify those).
Hm, this doesn't seem reasonable. Y is supposed to be hard vowel, not allowing soft L pronunciation.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Radonescu
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AFAIK, the Poles and Yugoslavs pronounce L softly - as in German or French and aren't used to "Dark L" pronounciation (the Ł doesn't count), which is standard for most other Slav natlangs. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Moraczewski
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Polish and Jugoslav L, as well as Czech and German and French is so-called "central european L" which is harder than Russian or BCSM ль/lj
Anyway, this is matter of orthography distinction, but in pronunciation it doesn't matter that much. What matters is that LY can not be pronounced with East Russian, BCSM, Slovene or Slovak "soft L", but "central european L" is allowed, because this is natural way of pronouncing "LY" for CZ, SK and South Slavic. Polish yes, it is up to choice of the reader, if a Pole pronounces with Ł or with L - it will not affect the understandability.

The same goes to pronunciation of words like "pisatelj", even if you pronounce "pisatel" with "dark L" it will be understood.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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