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i/y distinction
Topic Started: Mar 21 2007, 07:33 AM (2,332 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yeah, I'm inclined to think alike. Y is useful, but it shouldn't complicate the grammar any more than is really necessary.

So, what's your take? Slovjansky or Slovjanski?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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wannabeme
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Why dont we simply dont imply and aply Churchslavonic alike phonology.
It was kind of perfect :)
So we will write -y- where they wrote it. So easy.
If they wrote ky, gy, hy then we can too if they wrote ki, gi, hi than we can too.
Edited by wannabeme, Nov 15 2010, 04:23 AM.
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pedza
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Slovjansky or Slovjanski?

Well, when I see the "y" I immediately associate it with something foreign and strange, and I myself am not planning on using "y" so my preference is Slovjanski.
»V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje« -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njegoš
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gossips
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Quote:
 
Why dont we simply dont imply and aply Churchslavonic alike phonology.

Tempting idea, but how it would interact with the Slovianski design principle to use modern natlangs as a basis for criteria developing?
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
All valid points.

Taking ALL natlangs as a starting point is kind of tricky, because Ukrainian and Southslavic don't have i/y distinction (Ukrainian i usually comes from ě or o). So sure, if we'd take a vote, then the result would be:
-ski (RU, BE, PL, SB, Southslavic = 4,5 votes)
-sky (CZ, SK, UK = 1,5 votes).

Taking only the languages that have i/y distinction as a starting point:
-ski (RU, BE, PL, SB = 2,5 votes)
-sky (CZ, SK = 1 votes)

A perhaps even more convincing argument for ki/gi/hi is pronounciation: for those who are used to making a clear difference in pronunciation between i and y, it would be logical to pronounce it that way after k/g/h as well. However, only Ukrainians actually pronounce it like "ky"; no less than 5,5 of the 6 votes say "ki"!

I also agree with Andrej that while it's good to have "y", we should have more of them than necessary. So all in all, I think the arguments for "ki" are stronger than those for "ky". In fact, the only real disadvantage is that unlike the o/e rule the y/i rule would apply after k/g/h as well, but that is perhaps not such a disaster at all, especially since most Slavs would automatically to the right thing anyway.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
BTW, Polish and Lower Sorbian have i after g and k only; Russian, Belarussian and Upper Sorbian also have hi. The logical conclusion would indeed be ki/gi/hi.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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if it's Nauczny Slovjansky I think voting logic doesn't apply, since the origin of the vowel is clearly y
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Historically that's true. But NS is not meant to have proto-forms, but rather to catch multiple solutions in one without actually making a choice between them. Grĺd/grad/grod are typical examples. NS should also give the closest approximation to the ideal pronunciation of a word, and let's face it, that pronunciation should not be based on 0,5 vote.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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it is definitely not the ideal pronunciation of a word, Slovianski is the ideal pronunciation of the word, unless you expect everyone to pronounce nasals!
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
That is, if you assume that ę should be pronounced nasally. As far as I am concerned, that's not the case. This character represents something that become [ɛn], [ɛm], [ɛ~] in Polish, "ja" in East Slavic, "e" in South Slavic, and sometimes "ja", "a", "ä", "ě" in Czech and Slovak. So the best pronunciation would be something like [ʲć]. "ę" is just a spelling convention based on history, we might as well write "jćzyk".

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Nov 16 2010, 03:58 PM
That is, if you assume that ę should be pronounced nasally. As far as I am concerned, that's not the case. This character represents something that become [ɛn], [ɛm], [ɛ~] in Polish, "ja" in East Slavic, "e" in South Slavic, and sometimes "ja", "a", "ä", "ě" in Czech and Slovak. So the best pronunciation would be something like [ʲć]. "ę" is just a spelling convention based on history, we might as well write "jćzyk".

[čćч]
in that case the symbol y represents [і] with no softening of the preceding consonant, and -sky is a good spelling for [ski] whereas -ski would mean something like [sk'i]
Edited by iopq, Nov 16 2010, 05:49 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Not at all. If you take a vote for the pronunciation of CSl. y, you'll end up with 3 votes for [ i ] and 3 votes for the various Polish, Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussian pronunciations of y. After k/g, it's 5,5 votes vs. 0,5 vote, after h it's 4,5 vs. 1,5.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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fact is, hard pronunciations are 3.25 votes and soft pronunciations are 2.75 votes so it should be pronounced hard
after kgh whether it's [і] or [и] doesn't matter as much (and should be [і] because [и] is Ukr. only) since only Polish has a central sound and only after /h/

in the word мыти it's 3 votes for [і] and 2.75 votes for [ы] with Ukrainian [и] being 0.25
so y should only be a symbol for "non-softening i" since the voting clearly says the central sound is a minority (2.75 votes)
Edited by iopq, Nov 16 2010, 11:42 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I'm afraid I can't follow you. Are you saying that half of the Ukrainians pronounce мити as [miti]?

[čć]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
Administrator
I just added votes wrong (although some dialects DO pronounce и as [і] and і as ['і])
just replace 2.75 with 2.5 and 3.25 with 3.5
Edited by iopq, Nov 17 2010, 12:51 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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