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i/y distinction
Topic Started: Mar 21 2007, 07:33 AM (2,327 Views)
Gabriel Svoboda

You are right that Ukrainian invented a new i/y distinction independent on the "classical Slavic" i/y distinction, and south Slavic languages lost it at all. But still, Russian and west Slavic (3 votes with a majority of population) have the classical Slavic i/y distinction in spelling, so your spelling should use it. This distinction can be pronounced by all east Slavs and Poles - again 3 votes with a majority of population, so your pronunciation should have the classical Slavic i/y distinction, too.
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iopq
Administrator
it CAN be pronounced by anyone if they choose to
But I can't justify writing words like:
syn
because Ukrainian spells it син which transliterates into sin
and синій would become Slovianski sini
so we can't distinguish

so Polish/Russian/Belarusian spell and pronounce with an actual y/ы
that's only 2.5 votes

That's like saying we should pronounce g as Slovak/Czech h because Russians CAN.

And they sure can, since it exists in words like бог, легкий (albeit devoiced)
that would be 3 votes
but SURELY you can't say that just because someone CAN pronounce something we should impose that pronunciation
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

OK, maybe there are some reasons why i/y shouldn't be imposed in pronunciation so much, but the difference should still be written: Russian, Belarussian, Polish, Czech and Slovak have 3,5 votes.
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iopq
Administrator
I guess that makes sense
But the orthography reformed in me disagrees :<
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

I have also been forced for many times to make changes I didn't like. :)
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Silmethule
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Quote:
 
so Polish/Russian/Belarusian spell and pronounce with an actual y/ы
that's only 2.5 votes


But Ukrainians still makes distinction between и and і. In some propositions for Polish Cyrillic и is used for spelling of Latin-spelled "y", just like in Ukrainian.

Look at distinctions in vocabulary like Polish "być" i "bić", Czech "byt" i "bit"...
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Rostislav
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I want two sounds, i and y in Slovianski too.
"Byt' ili ne byt'?" - "To be or not to be?"
"Bit' ili ne bit'?" - "To beat or not to beat?"
Seriously, whithout two sounds, i and y the language is too poor.
Pravda jedina jest'
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iopq
Administrator
Yes, but in Ukrainian buty is influenced by "buv" (past tense)

if it wasn't, then it would have byty for both words
as for me, I pronounce i in Slovianski like и in Ukrainian, which might be closer to Polish y

there are some problems with i/y
rysunok or risunok? Polish has one, Russian the other because it loaned from Ukrainian without changing how it's written

it would be a departure from the common orthography of Sl-N and Sl-P, though

Serbocroatian has biti for both words, ask them how they deal with it
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Silmethule
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Yeah, I know the problem (some time ago I tried to create miedzyzapadoslovianski jazyk, I had same problems here, even if I created it only on Polish, Czech and Slovak...).

First thing is gramatical endings (like -i and sometimes -y in Polish adjectives, most ý in Czech etc...)

Second is vocabulary (sometimes there is -i- in 1 lang and -y- in other in the same word...)

So I agree the easiest way is to "kick out" <y> and write everywhere < i >, but for most of Slavs, I think, it looks strange (eg. bit' etc.). I have no idea what could be done with that.
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iopq
Administrator
Well, the entire South Slavic branch doesn't know the difference
Czech and Slovak pronounce them the same after some consonants and have to learn in school where to put one and the other

You can try to use y if you want, but I'll have to discuss it more to see what direction to take the language in
Lately I've been trying to simplify it
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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iopq
Administrator
Russian:
Сирия
хитрый
сыграть (с + играть)
славянский
гимн

the гы/хы/кы became ги/хи/ки in Russian
hard consonant + и became hard consonant + ы
щ,ч,ж,ш also have problems:
щипать
чисто
живо
шишка

I'm not saying it's not possible, but we'd have to try to probably look at Old Church Slavonic or something to figure out the real vowel in some words
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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Since when are "y" and "Ы" used in Slovjanski?
Od kogdi bukvi "y" i "Ы" upotrebjani po Slovjansku?
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Moraczewski
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To je proba.
Edited by Moraczewski, Nov 8 2010, 07:30 AM.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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wannabeme
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Da to jest jedyně proba, želimo viděti kako koristniki Slovianskogo mogųt izajdti na konec s těm, bo po myšľenijam mnogih -y- jest vistinų neobhodno.
A kromě togo rabotamo na tom kako sjedyniti Sloviansky i Novoslověnsky.
Edited by wannabeme, Nov 8 2010, 01:55 PM.
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Mścisław
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Li je gramatika na http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/index.html dobra?
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