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Just one alphabet forever; It is allowed to mix alphabets, no-one cares if the result is unnatural
Topic Started: Sep 5 2010, 12:53 PM (4,762 Views)
steeven
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Jarvi
Oct 9 2010, 07:26 PM
You mean: Polnij MS with full grammar forms, Prostij without cases and genders, right? This is not what Jan says. BTW if you write without genders and cases, this is still accepted by Slovianski, I think. But here we talk about the orthography, not the grammar.
Yes ~ Polnij
No ~ Prostij > I meant something similar to our original "slovioski" - with Nominative and limited other cases; or, alternatively of course, the use of prepositions only.
:) ;)

(Jan created a similar "short form" version of Slovianski, which may still be linkable (?) )
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Moraczewski
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steeven
Oct 10 2010, 05:12 AM
No ~ Prostij > I meant something similar to our original "slovioski" - with Nominative and limited other cases; or, alternatively of course, the use of prepositions only.
:) ;)
Jan's levels are different from that. What Jan says is only about the ortography.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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steeven
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Jarvi
Oct 10 2010, 07:43 AM
steeven
Oct 10 2010, 05:12 AM
No ~ Prostij > I meant something similar to our original "slovioski" - with Nominative and limited other cases; or, alternatively of course, the use of prepositions only.
:) ;)
Jan's levels are different from that. What Jan says is only about the ortography.
Aye, aye, Capt'n! ^o)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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wannabeme
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The word was about orthography. And about standardization of Slovjasnki's orthography that customers can custom to their needs by only removing some diacritics.
At this point we are focusing on Naučni Slovjanski because it will be the standard or official orthography and the users are going to change it at some level depending on the usage.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
You (Steeven and Andrej) are both right. In this case I was referring to orthography in particular, but yes, the same thing goes for grammar as well. Let's assume that MS is the sum of all Slovianski, Slovioski, Novoslovienskij, Glagolica, Prostoslovianski etc. grammars, in other words, all Slavic language projects where naturalism plays an important role. We have quite a few different grammar projects floating around, varying from complicated "Naučny" grammars where simplification is not or hardly an issue to highly simplified versions like Slovianski-P, Prostij Slovioski and Slovianto. What goes for orthography levels, basically goes for grammar as well. If we extrapolate the two extremes, then at the top of the scale we'd have a "Naučna Gramatika" that doesn't bother about simplification at all. Such a grammar wouldn't try to suppress irregularity at all, follow majority rule consistently instead of bothering to avoid different conjugational patterns or noun classes, etc.; for all I care, such a grammar could even feature the aorist. At the other end of the scale, we'd have a maximally simplified grammar. I've developed Slovianto as an experiment how far you can do with simplification while still getting a result that looks reasonably natural. Thus: gender doesn't play a role, adjectives aren't inflected at all, nouns have only plural, the number of verbal endings is minimised, etc. Here we can see exactly the same thing: Slovianski is somewhere in the middle, although closer to the Naučni variant than to the simplified variant.

Of course, in the case of orthography the whole issue can be settled by using or not using diacritics: the more diacritics you remove, the simpler it becomes. As a result, the same dictionary can be used on all levels. With grammar it's different: you can't simplify a Naučni grammar simply by removing parts of the description or by removing forms. In other words, you can't have "ja prošu", "ja prosim" and "ja prositi" all in one grammar.

Likewise, grammar levels and orthography levels shouldn't necessarily concur. Theoretically, Slovianto could also be written in Naučni orthography and vice versa. But the basic idea remains the same. We could have two or three grammatical levels (the easiest one for non-Slavic travellers, the hardest one for slavists/one-way communication). And basically, these levels could use the same dictionary as well. In short, it would be great if we could merge all different orthographies and grammars into one multi-layered system.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Sep 6 2010, 12:59 PM
If Dražen says that a lot of Serbs won't understand ю, я and є, that should be enough reason for NOT using these letters. Especially since nobody protested against NOT using ћ and ђ for the very same reason. Besides, adopting the Russian system in toto has one other disadvantage, related to е/э: sometimes it's je, sometimes it's e. Not exactly a typical solution in an auxlang, and hard to handle for those who aren't used to it.
While no one may have raised issue about using these two Serbian characters, they are perhaps even more "not understood" than the Russian characters you note.
I would encourage that these NOT be used in "official" publications.
^o)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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wannabeme
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Since soft L has quite a big problem in depiction of itself, could it be possible to borrow the polish sign ł as a represetant of soft L.
This way we would get rid of apostroph as a softening sign and become a system č,ž,š,ł,ř,ň.
Would this move disturb Polish understanding of Slovjanski badly or just slightely?

1) Would this move disturb Polish understanding of Slovjanski badly or just slightely?

2) Or would it be more practical to use č,ž,š and lj,rj,nj?
Could it happen that lj, rj, nj are not recognized as soft l,r and n?

3) What do you think it would be more appropriate?
Edited by wannabeme, Oct 12 2010, 12:18 PM.
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wannabeme
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This is very important subject so try to give pros and contras from your pint of veiw!
Edited by wannabeme, Oct 12 2010, 12:17 PM.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Using Polish Ł [w] for soft L is completely counterintuitive. Besides, I completely don't see the issue. After all, we DO have a perfectly valid character for soft L. We could even choose between Ľ and Ĺ, but now that we are using hačeks instead of acutes, there's no point in using the latter. In some fonts, Ľ shows up as L-apostrophe, in other fonts as L-haček, but in both cases it's completely clear what is meant. So I really don't see what kind of problem would be solved by using Ł.

I suggest we just stick to Š Ž Č / Ť Ď Ř Ľ Ň (Ś Ź). As far as I am concerned, people are free to asciify them as they please. We've been talking about SZ vs. SX vs. other solutions for years now, and about Ľ vs. L' vs. LJ vs. LI as well. There is only one possible conclusion: we'll never come to a real agreement about these things. And neither do we have to, as long as we all agree that Ľ is the real thing and all the rest are acceptable asciifications.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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the problem with the polish system is that we'll end up writing BEŁA so when we have to use the masculine we'll write BEŁI which introduces a ŁI - LI contrast in the language
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yeah, and that's quite unthinkable - especially if there's no Y. Ł is equally impossible before I as L is before Y. Běłý/běłá would be ok, though, although I still don't see the additional value of it. The current system is logical and transparent: a hard vowel is represented by the character proper, its soft counterpart by the same character + haček/acute.

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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Radonescu
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A little attempt at summarizing:

1. Does Slavianski need a consistent and strick writing system?

Although the author hesitates against such move but, IMO, sooner or later we'll come to it. It's just a question of live and death for a popular enough language to have a standardized orthography rules. What will be better for Slovianski - to allow the useless "freedom" of writing nj\ń\ň\ņ\n'\nx, with no same-written text in the Internet, and every user posturing with his own "orthography rules" (i.e. no rules) or that we'll have a neat, strict and simple rules for the sake of standardization and simplicity? (it's much easier to remember "write ALWAYs this way" but not "you can write A if you want, or B if you'd not or C if the weather is rainy").

2. Cyrillic version - Russian or Serbian standard (я vs. ja)?

I'm myself a natural speaker of Russian and I find its writing standard the most convenient for itself. But only for itself (and other East Slav languages). The usage of ю, я can make ambiguities in Slovianski. So I'd prefer the Serbian system with ja, jo, ju when the vowel comes at the beginning of the syllable, but an apostrophe\hacheked when it comes after a soft consonant (no "nj" or "lj" as it, again, may cause different pronunciation by different speakers). The Serbian way of writing is also preferable as it somehow blends the border between Latin and Cyrillic orthographies.

3. The problem of imputing the letters.

I think it's not so much of the problem, how the laziness of the people. Approximately 2 years ago I've designed a universal keyboard capable of printing ANY Latin letter based on just standard English keyboard layout - the additional letters are imputed using several "dead keys". The double press of the "dead key" imputes the symbol which it replaced.
For e.g. to impute Ń I should press first ' then N, and to print just ' I should double press the '-key. That's all.
Using the same idea I've made also a universal Cyrillic keyboard based on Russian. That's all how the problem is solved - no additional keyboard layout is needed, just your own + pre-programmed dead keys.

Also I dunno whether we need or not those Ś Ź, but I rather think that not. Most Slavic speakers don't distinguish them from Š Ž.

Bottom line: here's some kind of my proposal (based on everything what was sad during these 4 years and reason stated in my message) for a final version of the alphabet - http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5530/abeceda.gif
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Moraczewski
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Radonescu
Nov 24 2010, 10:16 AM
Also I dunno whether we need or not those Ś Ź, but I rather think that not. Most Slavic speakers don't distinguish them from Š Ž.
Correctly, they don't distinguish Ś Ź from S Z, not from Š Ž
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Radonescu
Nov 24 2010, 10:16 AM
A little attempt at summarizing:

1. Does Slavianski need a consistent and strick writing system?

Although the author hesitates against such move but, IMO, sooner or later we'll come to it. It's just a question of live and death for a popular enough language to have a standardized orthography rules. What will be better for Slovianski - to allow the useless "freedom" of writing nj\ń\ň\ņ\n'\nx, with no same-written text in the Internet, and every user posturing with his own "orthography rules" (i.e. no rules) or that we'll have a neat, strict and simple rules for the sake of standardization and simplicity? (it's much easier to remember "write ALWAYs this way" but not "you can write A if you want, or B if you'd not or C if the weather is rainy").
I'd say, consistent yes, strict no. What do we need very strict rules for in the first place? What's the best way to write depends very much on the situation: whom you're talking to, what kind of keyboard you're using, etc. Besides, there's also a practical point: no matter what kind of "rules" we have, people will write in their own way anyway. Why should it matter if anyone writes ż instead of ž, or ń instead of ň?

Quote:
 
Bottom line: here's some kind of my proposal (based on everything what was sad during these 4 years and reason stated in my message) for a final version of the alphabet - http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5530/abeceda.gif

Hehe. This is precisely the current situation, see: http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/phono_ortho.html#alphabet

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Radonescu
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Quote:
 
Hehe. This is precisely the current situation, see: http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/phono_ortho.html#alphabet


Oh! Thanks :D

Quote:
 
Why should it matter if anyone writes ż instead of ž, or ń instead of ň?


Of course, ń or ň isn't such a matter of principle, but hey, look, the official site officially gives somewhat over 9000 recommendations of how to write the same things:

Quote:
 
конь – коњ – кон/конј
коньa – коњa/коня – конјa/конa
коньи – коњи – кони – конји


Or even more horrible "diversity":

Quote:
 
puťa – putja – putia – put'a/puta


By the way, those have different not only spelling, but the consequent pronunciation as well.



I understand that people have different keyboards, and that total omittance of any orthography variations is inevitable. But why to start spreading them right from the official site, giving people a large set of variants instead of "1. This is the most preferable variant and 2. this is the substitution one" (i.e. 1. hacheked character, 2. ASCII substitutions )?
One of the examples of bad influence of dozen orthographies is the Slovianski wiki main page: http://slovianski.wikia.com/wiki/Glovna_stronica
At the upper half we have the Russian (я, ю) system, on the lower - the Serbian (ју, ја) and again - on the upper without apostrophes (and, looks like, without any softenings at all), on the lower - with them. Not to mention that it simply looks ridiculous, it may slow the development, result in 9000 Slavianski variants with no use and deter people from it, which will prefer artificial, ugly, Esperanto-like but however consistent Slovio.


My two proposals of solving the "ugly-apostrophe" dilemma:

1. very simple, let's just copy the Polish solution. A soft consonant is followed by I when stand before a vowel, and by an apostrophe - when at the end of the syllable.
Thus we have:
putia and put'
We lose hardly anything here, cause in Slav langs a vowel going after a real I-sound is in most times iotified. So to type Славия in Slavianski we just need to input Slavija and to type печенье - pečen'je.
A some small drawback will be that we'll have to make sure absolutely that the vowel after the "real" I-sound is iotified, hence (first the Russian example, second - a proposed Slovianski adaption): Азиаты -> Azjati, пианино -> pjanino, виолончель -> vijolončel', фиалка -> fjalka. "Aziati, violončel', pianino" - will sound somewhat stupid and confusing if we accept that i+vowel is a consonant softener and nothing else :P
Also the orthography rules will become somewhat more complicated comparing with Slovio... but is it something new for us? ;)

The places were the apostrophes remain will be in the minority and won't affect the aesthetic look of the language too much.
Also the additional benefit of such system will be that we lose the need in hacheked softening consonants (also we can keep them to get rid of apostrophes absolutely in the "proper" version).

2. So the second variant, even more simple: Apostrophes? What apostrophes? Those are present ONLY in ASCII version. So I would say - to hell with ASCII version, let's care only about the look of the proper one (Latin with hacheks and Cyrillic). The concern that "improper" version looks somewhat apostrophe-filled is not very important for us. Russian written in English-conventions Latin also looks ugly - but no one cares, as this is just a mere substitution when people don't have the proper keyboard, and most often - they do have those.

We can increase the amount of users of proper version by encouraging them to download keyboard layouts (based on their national ones, but with dead keys), giving a web virtual keyboard with all characters and publishing converting programs ASCII -> Proper Latin\Cyrillic.

After thinking a while, I came to a conclusion that I find the second variant more preferable.
Edited by Radonescu, Nov 25 2010, 05:01 AM.
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