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| Just one alphabet forever; It is allowed to mix alphabets, no-one cares if the result is unnatural | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 5 2010, 12:53 PM (4,764 Views) | |
| iopq | Oct 1 2010, 05:35 AM Post #76 |
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I thought it was czitasz, czita, etc. |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Oct 1 2010, 07:10 AM Post #77 |
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Of course I meant the stem for the purpose of past passive participle formation, don't take me at my word. If I did the same, I would ask if your system produces forms such us govoŕeju, govoŕeš - in accordance with govoŕeni. The vowel is not a part of the stem, and the endings are -ani, -eni, -eni, -eni. In your system, the vowel sometimes is a part of the stem and sometimes isn't, and the endings vary too (-ni, -ni, -eni, -eni) - that's why your system is more complicated, since it has more variable components than mine.
Great, finally we agree! No one wants to merge C'je and Ce, of course, it's a Bulgarian-only thing. But the Cě-Ce merger is widespread enough for us to accept it. Edited by Gabriel Svoboda, Oct 1 2010, 07:12 AM.
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| Moraczewski | Oct 1 2010, 07:42 AM Post #78 |
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So you have two different stems, one for conjugation, second for participles and verbal noun. czitati - czita + -m, -sz, -0, ... czitati - czit + -ani... or -eni? How can I select the right ending? OK, you add at least two conjugation types, a- and e-/i-/u-type. But that reqires exactly equal effort as current Slovianski system, where you have stems with vowel (a, i) and without (e, u). So right, current system has two rules: add/not add vowel to stem; suffix -eni or -ni You propose: one stem for conjugation, second for participles; + rule how to chose the right ending.
Well, correct me please if I tell something wrong, I don't have diploma in linguistics, but govor Edited by Moraczewski, Oct 1 2010, 07:43 AM.
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 1 2010, 10:40 AM Post #79 |
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govoreni is from govorjeni which is why we spell it with r' noszesni is from nosjeni |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Oct 1 2010, 03:27 PM Post #80 |
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Of course iopg, and thats why I agree to have goveřeni and nošeni, it would be some kinda systematic. |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Oct 1 2010, 08:27 PM Post #81 |
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That's the point, no diploma in linguistics should be required to speak Slovianski. Russian, Belarusian, Czech, BCS Ekavian, Bulgarian and Macedonian all have the same e in both reka and rozšireni, so why should such a majority of Slavs care about their different origin?
Okay. Both systems can be interpreted in various ways, but the specialty of your system is that you add suffix ending in vowel to a stem also ending in a vowel - no such difficulty can be found anywhere else in Slovianski. I can say the stems are dela-, vide-, pros-, nes- and the ending is -(e)ni, but you cannot say the stems are dela-, vide-, prosi- and nes- and the ending is -(e)ni - since it would produce prosini (or prošini as per the sound change common to both systems; but definitely not prošeni). |
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| Moraczewski | Oct 2 2010, 11:49 AM Post #82 |
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For me the current system is easier, because it requires one global rule that verbs have two stems (infinitive and present) and how the stem is formed, and additional minor rule about i-stems to avoid unnatural forms of govorini (this rule is minor because it touches not all verbs). Here it goes: čitati, infinitive stem is čita-, participle is čitani govoriti, infinitive stem is govori-, participle should be govorinij, but it is not natural, so we look for additional rule and we have govorjeni. Your system requires learning rules how to form three stems (infinitive, present tense and participle) and a rule which verb requires which ending (this rule is global because you have to use it for every verb). So I see it like that: čitati, participle stem is čit-, but infinitive stem is čita-, so you choose ending -ani govoriti, participle stem is govor-, but infinitive stem is govori-, so you choose ending -eni. ufff... Edited by Moraczewski, Oct 2 2010, 11:50 AM.
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Oct 3 2010, 08:11 AM Post #83 |
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Ah, then my system can be interpreted as being absolutely identical to yours, except for one thing: in your system, the additional rule changes govorini to govoŕeni, my system changes govorini to govoreni. Which is a more natural form, since it has got exactly the same e as we have in reka - and this sameness has got 3,5 votes: Russian: рaсширенный, рекa Belarusian: пашыраны, рака Czech: rozšířený, řeka Ekavian: проширена, река Bulgarian, Macedonian: разширени, река |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 3 2010, 02:20 PM Post #84 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Gabriel, it seems to me like you are comparing apples and pears. Sure, many languages merge rě with rje, but that happens always because either soft r hardens and ě > e, or because rj > ř and re > ře. That doesn't make it the same thing, though. Otherwise, you might as well add Polish: rozszerzenie, rzeka. However, the Polish participle rozszerzony tells the whole story, because: -rjeny > -řeny > -rzony (f.ex. marzyć, marzenie, marzony) -rěny > -řěny > -rzany (f.ex. obejrzeć, obejrzenie, obejrzany) And that's the whole trouble. In natlangs, sound changes are conditioned by different factors, like stress/intonation, surrounding phonemes and the like. Slovianski usually stays very close to the prototype, and either doesn't change it at all, or applies simple sound changes to individual phonemes only: that's why tLt becomes tOLt in all cases, no matter what the T's are. Likewise, because Slovianski is essentially ekavian, ě > e in all cases as well (ě in Naučni Slovianski), while rj > ř in all cases. Therefore, it is no more than logical that Slovianski has rozšiřeni and reka. The rule for the perfect passive participle is pretty simple as it is: -ini is unnatural, so we substitute it with -^eni. If the consonant before ^ has a haček already, we don't need a second one, and if it cannot have a haček, we use j: -siti > -s^eni > -šeni -riti > -r^eni > -řeni -miti > -m^eni > -mjeni -čiti > -č^eni > -čeni
Sure, I buy that. But it is what you get when you decide to merge phonologies that aren't really compatible. The truth is, you cannot build a good phonology merely by following majority vote. We decided to have ř because a majority of the languages have that phoneme, but most languages have some specifics regarding its usage: Russian can have it word-finally, but not before e (because e = je), Ukrainian can have it, but not word-finally, Belarussian doesn't have it at all, etc. That should be no concern of ours: natlangs have a right to be irregular and/or to have 15 verb classes and 27 noun classes, we don't. Just imagine: the same argument you use goes equally well for a word like peť: how can a South Slav who doesn't even have ť in his own language know that let remains let, but pet becomes peť? It you really want to make things as easy as possible, then phonology is where you should start making things easier. So merge ť with t, ř with r, but then don't complain about puta, lekara, lubiti etc. All in all, that's just a good argument for a system where hačeks are written optionally. That way, people can write govoreni, pet, proseni, and everybody's happy. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 3 2010, 06:32 PM Post #85 |
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haczeks being written optionally is the worst idea ever a language like czech or slovak, 90% understandable to me when written becomes unreadable a language like serbian, barely understandable to me when written becomes just a stream of letters |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Moraczewski | Oct 3 2010, 07:08 PM Post #86 |
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Let me ask, what will you write for ljub*eni? lubeni is the worst case, the least understandable option lubleni is used in no natural languages (if we agree with ekavian pronunciation) lubljeni is too hard to spell and harder to learn for West Slavs, requres additional rule to add "lj"
Do you say that you will understand govořeni and not govoreni? or ľubiti and not ljubiti and not lubiti? Jan s proposal doesnt make anything new, it just legalizes what people are using already |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Oct 3 2010, 11:08 PM Post #87 |
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Jans quots:
Only p,b,v,m,f cannot have haček. Thats why we are gonna write l'ubjeni. BCS and OCS have l'ubl'eni because BCS and OCS palatalize p,b,v,m,f as pl', bl',vl',ml' fl'. Edited by wannabeme, Oct 3 2010, 11:11 PM.
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Oct 6 2010, 09:51 AM Post #88 |
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Yes, and that's exactly what I propose: puta, lekara are attested, so there is absolutely nothing to be complained about. Lubiti of course would be a complete different thing, ľ and ń are nearly omnipresent in Slavic languages, but it is the case of no other soft consonants we currently have. It's you who is trying to find excuses for keeping many more soft consonants, which I fully understand about ť, but no more about ď or ŕ, especially if you agree to eliminate ś and ź. So yes, a South Slav doesn't know that his pet should become pjať in Slovianski, and therefore we adopted peť. South Slavs can learn easily that feminine nouns ending in -t end in -ť in Slovianski. And equally well, a group of Slavs worth the same number of votes as south Slavs (Russian, Slovak, Bulgarian) doesn't distinguish C'e and Ce, so we should do the same simplification for them as we did for south Slavs. You may agree verbally that Slavs speaking Slovianski shall not need a diploma in linguistics, but your deeds are different, since you insist on derivation from a prototype that 3,5 votes of languages no more have, since they have simplified it per the rje/rě merger.
Lubeni (attested in Czech and Bulgarian) or lubleni (attested in east Slavic). I might agree on lubjeni, but only if we agree that Cje/C'e should be exceptions to be accepted only when an overhelming of majority of languages has them, not when a majority of languages has a simple e - since otherwise you also tend to use poľe (where Russian, Belarusian, Slovak, Bulgarian and Macedonian have pole) or rozšiŕeni (where Slovak, Bulgarian, Macedonian and east Slavic all have rozšireni). |
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| Moraczewski | Oct 6 2010, 10:07 AM Post #89 |
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lubleni is not an option because "l" is hard and because it becomes very unobvious exception lubeni, as I said, is the least understandable option for "ljubljeni" speakers. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 6 2010, 11:35 AM Post #90 |
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lubiti is twice harder to understand than ljubiti/ľubiti in the case of govoreni, I already speak a language that has govoreni, so why wouldn't I understand it |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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