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| Just one alphabet forever; It is allowed to mix alphabets, no-one cares if the result is unnatural | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 5 2010, 12:53 PM (4,765 Views) | |
| Moraczewski | Sep 28 2010, 10:59 PM Post #61 |
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I would explain it in more easy way <STEM>i + eni => <STEM>ieni => <STEM>jeni because we don't have diphtongs and "i" becomes semivowel then "j" palatalizes consonants s z t d etc for me it doesn't matter whether we write ľ or ĺ or lj, main thing is that we should not treat it as something different from ordinary soft l. The same for n, and for r if you like it. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 29 2010, 01:30 AM Post #62 |
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videti vs. govoriti of course it's different, the roots end in a different vowel dvignuti has a past participle of dvizseni because the root ends in a consonant |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 29 2010, 03:09 AM Post #63 |
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Well in BCS -nuti verbs have -nuti, -nuta, -nuto participles. podmetnuti - podmetnut Only for the info: BCS people oft use -t- participles instead of -n- participles of -i- stems in the living speach. napraviti - stol je napravit instead of stol je napravljen Actually my father uses it alot.Edited by wannabeme, Sep 29 2010, 03:09 AM.
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| iopq | Sep 29 2010, 09:36 AM Post #64 |
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doesn't really work for Slovianski, because dvignuti and dvignuti are identical if stati has the form stanesz, I would not be happy about stanuti as the participle either even if there is no confusion between infinitive and participle now the question is how to get the damn participles for minuti, stati, etc. Bulgarian has становен, миновен Russian has постановлен and doesn't even have a past participle for миновать |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 29 2010, 11:36 AM Post #65 |
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And минулый?? |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 29 2010, 01:36 PM Post #66 |
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that's the Resultative Participle, not the Past Participle If you want to say "this was discussed" you would say "это было обговорено" how are you going to say "this was passed by" the same grammatical structure doesn't work, you can't say "это было минуло" it doesn't mean the same thing, you would have to say "это было миновано" but I'm pretty sure that form is not literary |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 29 2010, 02:08 PM Post #67 |
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Well yes, if Russian happen to use this participle, it would be минованый. постановленный и поставленный are not from стать, but from постановить и поставить Do we really need to masturbate our minds to get participles from each verb if they are not used? |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 29 2010, 07:31 PM Post #68 |
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But the system doesn't need to be so much complicated in order to produce natural forms. This system produces rozširiti --> rozšiŕeni, but Slovak, Bulgarian, Macedonian and east Slavic all have rozšireni (3,5 votes, even Belarusian has its hard e here). I'd just say the suffix is always -ni added to the stem ending in a vowel, just every Slav sees -ini would be weird, so it is -eni instead. But -jeni is not needed. Indeed, in the case of -iti verbs, -seni, -zeni, -teni, -deni, -steni, -zdeni must become -šeni, -ženi, -čeni, -dženi, -ščeni, -ždženi, but the learner doesn't need to memorise that according to some theoreticians, the proto-forms of those might have been *-sjeni, *-zjeni, *-tjeni, *-djeni, *-stjeni and *-zdjeni.
I don't know why 3 votes with a majority of population should be something radically different from 4 votes. You can say "if it's 3/3, we choose the simpler solution", but the simpler solution doesn't need 3 votes to be chosen though, if it is simple it can have much less (why else would we have ę --> e?). 2 votes (which hard r has) should therefore be enough to introduce the simplification.
Well, I was under impression that Proto-Slavic had NO soft consonants at all. The Wikipedia article on proto-Slavic says it had m, n, p, b, t, d, k, g, c, dz, č, v, s, z, š, ž, h, r, l, j. Full stop. All later soft consonants emerged from a collision of hard consonants with soft vowels (ь was one of those soft vowels). Ergo, if we are to have no ś and ź since proto-Slavic didn't have them, it's all right, but the same argument applies to ŕ, and also to ľ, ń, ť and ď! |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 29 2010, 09:22 PM Post #69 |
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I don't understand what's complicated in this system. For me it's quite easy as is right now. BTW this is not unusual that Belarusian has hard e in govoreni, Belarusian has no soft R at all. Edited by Moraczewski, Sep 29 2010, 09:23 PM.
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 30 2010, 12:24 AM Post #70 |
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and Ukrainian has hardening before e I'd rather have consistent rules and have govor'eni if we have C'e at all |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 30 2010, 04:56 AM Post #71 |
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I also don't understand all this fuss about C'e. What's wrong in having C'e? You think for some reason that this will be confusing for Russians (why to write govorjeni and not djevčinka), and I can tell you, this won't. I agree with Igor, let's have an easy consistent rule. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 30 2010, 05:48 AM Post #72 |
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Well is this not simply enough? We have always eni, ena, eno but the last consonant is always palatalized. Its not softened but palatalized. Only p, b, f, v, m must have jeni because we dont palatalize them to pl, bl, fl, vl, ml like East and Southslavs do. The question here was only how we are gonna write palatalized l, r, n. Like lj, rj, nj or l', r', n' or lˇ ř, n̆. |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 30 2010, 06:23 AM Post #73 |
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Finally we returned to the main theme. This was the subject of Jan's initial suggestion: it's up to writer to choose how he writes soft/palatalized l, r, n. You can write in any way, lj, ľ, l' or even l. This will not affect the understanding. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 30 2010, 06:20 PM Post #74 |
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The complicated thing is that you have to learn that for -ati, -eti, -iti and -0ti verbs, the vowel sometimes is a part of the stem and sometimes isn't. My system is simple, the vowel is not a part of the stem, and the past participle endings are -ani, -eni, -eni, -ni. You can't even say your system produces more natural forms, my example with rozšireni proves that. (In both systems, you have to learn that -siti --> -šeni, -ziti --> -ženi, -titi --> -čeni, -diti --> -dženi, but in my system there is no roundabout around *-sieni, *-zieni, *-tieni and *-dieni.)
This just shows how many languages merged C'e and Ce in at least some positions, besides Russian, Slovak and Bulgarian that have this merger completed or nearly completed. It is completely natural that Slovianski has this merger, too.
It is not only Russians, but also Slovaks and Bulgarians. And sincerely, I believe you are a Russian who is able to combine two different universes in one language (one universe concerns words like morje and govorjeni and who-knows-what-else, the other one words like devčinka), but I don't believe it is the case of all Russians.
Or just l, r, n when before e, as languages worth 3,5 votes do. |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 30 2010, 06:46 PM Post #75 |
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Then how do you conjugate verbs if the vowel is never part of the stem? čitati - čitem, čiteš... čiteni? It's ok if we merge Cě and Ce, but if we merge Cьje and Ce this is quite another thing, then we should write pisane and not pisanje. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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Actually my father uses it alot.
2:14 PM Jul 11