| Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Just one alphabet forever; It is allowed to mix alphabets, no-one cares if the result is unnatural | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 5 2010, 12:53 PM (4,766 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Sep 26 2010, 09:52 AM Post #46 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Yeah, I was actually going to ask about that, because the discussion got stalled a bit prematurely. So, we get rid of ś and ź, but leave the rest (ŕ, ń etc.) intact. All agreed? Nobody objects? But then I have one more question. The reason we use acutes for soft vowels is that in the case of ś/ź there was no other solution, because š and ž were already "taken". If we abandon ś and ź, we do have the option to use hačeks instead: Ť Ď Ľ Ň Ř (some fonts do display Ľ with a real haček). That would at least solve the problem that D-acute and T-acute are absent in Unicode, and get us a nice and consistent set (which would also include Š, Ž and Č). How do others feel about that? [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 26 2010, 07:04 PM Post #47 |
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I think that such a system can be PERHAPS littel bit confusing for BCS and Slovenians. We treat l,r,n the same way as t,d. But what we soften them not like northern Slavs. But in such situation where Slovianski has č and dž. So we practicaly dont have any soft consonants in north slavic way. So actually we have only palatalization of k,g,h to č,ž,š. Sibilarization from k,g,h to c,z,s and jotization from t,d and l,n,r to ć,đ and lj,nj and rj Slovenian only. svetja = svetɕa medja= medʑa oddelenje = odeleɲe volja=voʎa etc... I would appreciate if somebody would describe when we need to use soft consonants in northslavic way so I could reflect if it is very difficult to learn for Southerns or not so much. Thanks! Edited by wannabeme, Sep 26 2010, 07:12 PM.
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| iopq | Sep 27 2010, 01:26 AM Post #48 |
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kvet becomes cvet, no? |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 27 2010, 02:38 AM Post #49 |
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Yeah, yeah but that some other thing. OCS and Macedonian still has dzvezda unlike BCS, SVN - zvezda But it is the matter of qwe, gwe - which are really rare by Slavs. But still by some logic it should have remained gv, kv like in PL, CZ, SVK. PIE gena >>> žena (greek - genika) PIE gemia >>> zemja (greek - gea) So the -e caused that palatalization or sibilarization. Normaly -v- should have stoped the palatalization but it still happened in some slavic languages
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| iopq | Sep 27 2010, 02:51 AM Post #50 |
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do you have ruka and na ruce, then? |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 27 2010, 03:17 AM Post #51 |
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Yes we have ruka , na ruci... noga, na nozi... vuk - pl. vuci (wolf) orah - pl. orasi and this is called sibilarization or some call it 2nd palatalization. Iopg would you like to tell me where do we need to write Ť Ď Ľ Ň Ř principialy. I know for feminin nouns of i-declension like on -ost' or on consonant, but where else? If somebody dont explain such cases there is no chance that Southslavs are gonna know where and when to write soft consonants, you know. |
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| iopq | Sep 27 2010, 04:26 AM Post #52 |
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also n stem nouns like deň, kameň - masculine nouns that have a soft ending dva dňa, dva kamňa for the brojna forma also r stem nouns like mať have weird forms: we have forms like mateřah, mateřami I wouldn't want to lose these forms because all IE languages have this MTR type root (another r stem noun is četire which is pl. tantum) nt roots have oblique forms like deseťami in other words, it's a few consonant stems and the i declension Edited by iopq, Sep 27 2010, 04:36 AM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 27 2010, 01:30 PM Post #53 |
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OK, I agree it's better to keep ť as a gender marker. On the contrary, ď has no such function, masculine nouns ending in ď are nearly as numerous as feminine nouns ending in ď, and neither group can be proclaimed to be an exception (dožď, medveď, želuď vs. kaď, labeď, meď, odpoveď). Ŕ is the same case as ś/ź, both have a majority, but both won't produce unattested forms if we eliminate them for the sake of simplicity. So, I think there are three options: - ľ, ń, ť (ľ and ń as nearly omnipresent letters, ť as a kind of gender marker) - ľ, ń, ť, ď (if you feel it would be odd to treat ď differently from ť) - ľ, ń, ť, ď, ŕ, ś, ź (all majority letters, no caring about simplicity) I don't see any problem with veś, since there is no such entry in the dictionary anyway, "all" is just ves, "louse" is voš, "weight" would be vaga or težina. If we had no ŕ, ś, ź, it of course would not mean rja, sja, zja are forbidden combinations. All we talk about are consonants not followed by a vowel. Anyway, didn't we have pjať until very recently, without anybody ever saying we have soft p? And yes, if we had no ś/ź, we would be free to use carons consistently: ľ, ň, ť, (ď), (ř). P.S. Of course, letters eliminated in ordinary Slovianski by all means should stay in Naučni Slovianski! Edited by Gabriel Svoboda, Sep 27 2010, 01:36 PM.
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| iopq | Sep 27 2010, 03:03 PM Post #54 |
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the vote for r': Russian: full r' (1 vote) Ukr: rjV alternates with r word-finally (0.25 votes) Bel: always hard (0 votes) Polish: full r' (1 vote) Czech: full r' (0.5 votes) Slovak: always hard (0 votes) Slovenian: alternates with rj (0.25 votes) BCS: always hard (0 votes) Macedonian: always hard (0 votes) Bulgarian: alternates with rjV (0.25 votes) 3.25 votes that support forms like lekar' - dva lekar'a |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 27 2010, 03:21 PM Post #55 |
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But we can always say that ř is optional and not compulsory to write, write it only if a confusion may occur (I don't know if there are some examples) |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 27 2010, 10:21 PM Post #56 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I can see at least one additional advantage of keeping ř: prositi > pros-^eni > prošeni govoriti > govor-^eni > govořeni Without ř, it would be a case similar to ľubiti: ľubiti > ľub-jeni > ľjubjeni And yes, ř is optional and not compulsory to write, just like ń, ľ, ť etc. Honestly, at this poitn it doesn't really matter much whether people write govořeni, govoŕeni, govorjeni or govoreni, as long as we all agree that govořeni is the ground form. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 27 2010, 10:38 PM Post #57 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Funny, in Polish łabędź is masculine. But yes, in general you're right: these things are generally bad gender markers. The simplification was rather based on the fact that words ending in a hard consonant are/were masculine by definition, while in the case of soft consonants it can/could go both ways (puť ~ puťa is at least one example of a ť word that CAN be masculine). However, I think it ť and ď should be treated as a pair; it would be odd to have one and kick out the other. As for ř, it's a bit of an isolated case. I don't think eliminating ś and ź would necessarily mean eliminating ř as well, just like keeping ť and ď doesn't necessarily imply that we also have to keep ř. Personally, I'm inclined to keep ř. Igor's post makes it clear that even though lekař has only 2,5 votes, lekařa has no less than 4 votes (which gives a regularised nominative lekař anyway), and I think ř has also the advantage of giving forms like govořeni (see my previous post). [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 28 2010, 05:02 PM Post #58 |
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I stil don't understand why govoŕeni (i. e. govori-eni) is the ground form instead of govoreni (i. e. govor-eni), if the other ground forms are del-ani and vid-eni, not dela-eni and vide-eni. As a consequence, I don't understand how it supports having the ŕ letter. No-one denies ŕ has a majority, but likewise ś and ź have a clear majority. If we use the simplest solution offered by the natlangs in the case of ś and ź, we should do the same for ŕ. Or we shouldn't use it in neither case. We should decide whether we want to simplify or not. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 28 2010, 06:46 PM Post #59 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Well, that's simple, Gabriel: -ni comes after a and e stems, -eni after i and consonant stems. It's derived from the infinitive. Thus: dela-ti > dela-ni vide-ti > vide-ni nes-ti > nes-eni prosi-ti > prosi-eni > prošeni govori-ti > govori-eni > govořeni ľubi-ti > ľubi-eni > ľubjeni In other words, -ieni becomes -^eni when the preceding consonant can be softened, otherwise it becomes -jeni. BTW You can't say ś and ź have a clear majority. It's supported by 3 votes (East Slavic + Polish) only. One additional reason for NOT having them is that they didn't even exist in Proto-Slavic: all cases of ś and ź come from sь and zь only, whlie -sj- and -zj- all became -š- and -ž- (hence prošeni, važeni). |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 28 2010, 08:52 PM Post #60 |
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I dont know för other languages but BCS has viđeni <<< vidjeni and we have also nositi - nošen <<< nosjen as well as OCS has viždeni. So actually we would have -ani vs -jeni whereat. Now I am gonna concentrate on the pronounciation and not writing style. -kj, gj, hj coalesce č, ž, š -sj , zj coalesce to š,ž -lj, nj coalesce as well, rj in Czech, Polish, Slovenian (Slovak, BCS, Bulgarian the rj=r) -tj, dj coalesce to ć, đ what would give č, dž in Slovianski -pj, bj, vj, mj give plj, blj, vlj, mlj in BCS and Eastslavic, we decided it should stay pj, bj, vj, mj So we dont have any -eni. But only -ani vs -jeni. The only case of -eni is in nesti neseni and vezti vezeni so far I can imagine. So it is clear that we actualy have two groups of -jeni, the one that palatalize and the one that doesnt. Although in Russian and BCS they all palatalize. So for k, g, h/ s, z/ t, d/ we will mark the palatalization with haček. For p, b, v, m we will use -j-. For l, r, n Southslavs use -j- and Westslavs use the aposthroph, dont they? Eastslavs use in this case -e- which is actually an -je-. For us is the question should we apply hačeks or -j- for palatalizing of l, r, n. Be aware that we also should keep an eye on cyrillic too and what our markers of palatalization there. If we want to introduce some logic by pronounciation we should say haček is the marker of palatalization and then use haček for l, r, n too because in reality lj, nj, rj are pronounced as one sound only. And we distinguish it with j which is then pronounced appart from b, p , v, m. The god thing is that everyone is gonna understand l, r, n with hačeks but I am really anxious about how will people write l with haček. And I dont wanna any haček on the left or right from l but OVER it like in š, ž, č, ř, ě etc. If we are gonna use some apostrphes on on the right side then please we we can use -j- instead freely or apply appostrophes to s, z, c too. Edited by wannabeme, Sep 28 2010, 09:19 PM.
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