| Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Just one alphabet forever; It is allowed to mix alphabets, no-one cares if the result is unnatural | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 5 2010, 12:53 PM (4,767 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Sep 7 2010, 11:09 AM Post #31 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Andrej, it really depends. There are many ways to write something. If you are writing in Word, for example, it's very easy to create a macro. For example: /й/ > ј. I have done such a thing in Access, because writing Naučni Slovianski is quite a pain in the ass, and I was getting tired of copying-and-pasting, using ALT codes and the like. But as it is only one character, an ALT code would be possible as well. A third possibility is using a/the transliterator. It accepts all orthographies as input and provides some 20 different possibilities as output. I'd say it is 99% foolproof. As far as I can see now, problems arise only for initial e/je when the text is very short (and there's no solution for that, there's no way of telling that език is Russian Cyrillic for jezik or Serbian Cyrillic for ezik), and there's a tiny little thing with -nje. The fourth possibility is that you use й. A Serb will understand it because of what it looks like. In край there won't be the slightest problem, in йаблоко and йедати you'll have to realise that what looks bad to you may not look bad and be more understandable to a Serb. The fifth possibility is that you write я and едати (or єдати, but if you don't have ј you won't have that one on your keyboard either), which as perfectly okay as long as you realise that a Serb in your audience might not know that я is ja and е is je. @Gabriel, don't worry about the transliterator. It will still provide all the current solutions, only labelled as "national options" or something. I have already reworked it, I'll upload it one of these days. And I can always provide an earlier version, if necessary. [čć] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 7 2010, 11:33 AM Post #32 |
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The fourth possibility is not the international orthography anymore! I want to know how to type jаблонь. Well, thank you, can you tell me what is the Alt code for j? Thank you Drazen for keyboard managers, but the problem is that you have to install it on every computer you are using - home, work ;), your girlfriend's computer, your grandmother's computer, internet-cafe... |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 7 2010, 12:16 PM Post #33 |
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Yeah, it doesnt solve the problem but it can be helpful. We shouldnt be so tight to the nowdays. The future brings new technologies. Laser keyboards, remote controling etc. Who knows what can happen as next Perhaps after 2012 there wont be more computers and keyboard. We will write on the paper or so and slovianski will become new lingua latina of Slavs. Haha I have big imagination
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| iopq | Sep 7 2010, 01:25 PM Post #34 |
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I use the number keys for additional cyrillic letters my top row in cyrillic layout: эжшчщъьіїє I type numbers with the numpad, I type special characters like !@#$ with the Alt Gr + the number (because shift is the capital letter) Edited by iopq, Sep 7 2010, 01:26 PM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 21 2010, 06:01 PM Post #35 |
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I tend to agree more and more. The original reason for soft consonants was to avoid offensive forms such as pisatela or kona. But puta, žaluda, lekara, losa are all attested and ź is so extremely rare that it is difficult to even check its reflexes in Czech-Slovak and south Slavic. The original dispute about soft consonants was about zero vs. ď/ť/ľ/ń, we never considered having ľ and ň only. In 2007-2008, we didn't realise that we don't have to adopt whatever has three votes or more, and no-one dared to challenge the resulting phonology later. I know, it would be quite a revolutionary thing to do it now, too. |
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| iopq | Sep 22 2010, 01:13 AM Post #36 |
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You say especially Bulgarian, but Bulgarian has mandatory softening before a yat, even in the case of р, с, з, etc. it has the most softened sounds out of any South Slavic language it shares the "hardening before e" feature of Ukrainian, but no one would say Ukrainian lacks soft phonemes it's unfortunate that Czech and Slovak lost s' and z' even in declension but even Slovenian has combinations of zj and sj in words before vowels |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 22 2010, 02:50 AM Post #37 |
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Are you shure iopg? BCS and BUlgarian share the same feature. Short and long jat. Only BCS dialects can soften t,d,l,n,s,z after the short jat (je) but they dont need to do it in the official language. Afik bulgarian short jat is "я" and long jat is "e". Only after л and н it comes to jotation ля and ня. In other cases like д,т,с,з,р it is pronounced separetely dja and not đa, tja and not ća. In Slovenian too, sj and zj, even rj is pronounced separately. So Slovenian sja, zja, rja has nothing to do with Russian ся, зя or Polish sia, zia. Edited by wannabeme, Sep 22 2010, 02:52 AM.
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| iopq | Sep 23 2010, 05:49 AM Post #38 |
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Actually in Bulgarian yat under stress becomes ja and unstressed becomes e and I don't expect people to pronounce them any differently anyway in practice sja and s'a sound close enough this is supported by the fact that loans from Russian in Bulgarian are pronounced the same way - like изящен is of course pronounced izjashten but nobody cares really all that much |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 23 2010, 05:58 AM Post #39 |
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Of course |
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| iopq | Sep 23 2010, 06:16 AM Post #40 |
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the only concern about losing z' and s' is that vse is all things, and ves' is all of one thing, but ves to me means "weight" but that distinction doesn't exist in Polish so I'm not sure if s' and z' are necessary I'd like to know whether sja/sju and zja/zju exist in South Slavic in declension or conjugation and whether they alternate with s/z Edited by iopq, Sep 23 2010, 06:24 AM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 23 2010, 07:09 AM Post #41 |
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We have sav, sva, sve - svi or elder vas, vsa, vse, vsi. For the singular we may use celi, cela, celo too. Hmmm give me an exaple where it exists in Russian. I will tell you then its serbian version. We have zja and sja but in words like sjajni, zjakati or so. But in declension I cannot remember anything. ves and ves' is for me the same thing it can be declinated ves, vesa if masculinum and ves, vesi if femininum. And I would understand ves as something that hangs. BCS vešati vesiti - hang Weight is by us težina, teža, |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 23 2010, 10:28 AM Post #42 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I'm feeling much the same way Gabriel does. Mind, if we'd abolish ś and ź, that does not mean the sequences sj and zj can never occur. After all, we also have zemja, kropja and the like. When I think of it, I don't even remember how we got all these soft consonants in the first place. Initially t' simply meant tj, and whether this should be pronounced as a softened t or a t+j sequence, we didn't bother. By the time we starting treating those sequences as separate phonemes, we already had words like los', and that's how I guess we got stuck with them. I agree, they are rare and the average text won't contain a single sample of them (veś/vśa, if anything). Slovianski won't be any less understandable for Poles or Russians if we got rid of them; in a story about wildlife, "los" will explain itself anyway. As for ves/vsa/vse... well, these forms ARE attested, and because it's not exacty a stand-alone word, it won't easily be confused with "weight". But if it is really a problem for Russians, we could also opt for the West Slavic solution, veš/vša/vše. Who on Earth is going to confuse that with a louse? One thing to consider is perhaps that fact that even if most language have ś and ź phonemes, that doesn't necessarily mean they occur in the same positions as well. Montenegrin even adopted special characters for them, but if I've understood everything correctly, they would be used in cases of s + jat, in words like beśeda and the like. The only languages that have them in the same positions where we have them, are Polish and East Slavic. 3 votes with a majority of the population indeed, but nothing we couldn't do without anyway. The next candidate for a purge would be ŕ. It's not that frequent either, but it has 4 votes. If we get rid of it, we can still have morje/morja and burja, we just can't write them as moŕe/moŕa/buŕa anymore. Or we'd just have more/mora, bura, januar(a), etc. Next in line are ť and ď. I think the main question here is not only whether we can live with put/puta or not, but also one other thing. One of the basic ingredients of 2006 Slovianski was simplicity, an element that has moved somewhat to the background afterwards, but still not entirely. Everbody agrees that noun declension and verbal conjugation are difficult in Slavic and therefore should be simplified. Slovio achieves this by getting rid of declension altogether and limiting conjugation to just a few forms. Slovianski doesn't go that far, but still tries to minimise the learning burden by making inflection predictable: for verbs, learn the infinitive, for nouns, learn the nominative singular, and that's all you need to know for the full inflection. Thus, any word ending in -a behaves like žena, any word in a hard consonant behaves like dom, any word ending in -o or -e is neuter. Words ending in a soft consonant are feminine as a rule, and the number of exceptions (put', muž) remains very limited. If we get rid of ť/ď, that would basically mean that in the case of nominatives on a consonant people will have to know gender as well. Well, and we'd have to live with gost/gosta, of course. So, the way I see if, here are our options:
Either way, if we get rid of ś and ź, we have the possibillity of using hačeks instead of acutes for soft consonants. [й] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 23 2010, 11:27 AM Post #43 |
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well West Slavic reflexes of *вьхо > вше are the minority, *вьхо > все is the majority if we purge r' we have lekar -> dva lekara NOTE that Bulgarian has лекар -> два лекаря, двигател -> два двигателя, etc. same thing for the vocative, цар -> царю same thing happens in Ukrainian, the contrast between r and r' is neutralized word-finally and before consonants, but possible before vowels, лікар -> лікаря now if Slovenian actually acts similarly, but spells it using rj, why would it mean that it's treating it any differently? |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 23 2010, 02:34 PM Post #44 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Yeah, and that's why I guess we better leave ŕ intact. But we might indeed get rid of ś and ź, no? Mind, it's not that I desperately want to get rid of them, but since they are rare, supported by 3 votes only, generally hard to deal with for the remaining 3 votes, and very hard to distinguish from š and ž by non-Slavs... besides, those two babies are the only reason we are using acutes for soft vowels. Ves, vsa, vse is logical and attested, and besides, one word can hardly be a reason to maintain two inconvenient phonemes in a language, now can they? [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 26 2010, 08:53 AM Post #45 |
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we can get rid of them, I introduced them at a point when they were needed, no way in hell could I live with prosa, mesac, etc. |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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Perhaps after 2012 there wont be more computers and keyboard. We will write on the paper or so and slovianski will become new lingua latina of Slavs. Haha I have big imagination

2:14 PM Jul 11