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Just one alphabet forever; It is allowed to mix alphabets, no-one cares if the result is unnatural
Topic Started: Sep 5 2010, 12:53 PM (4,768 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
The answer to that is quite simple, Andrej: write the way you're used to - it won't be any less correct than it is now. Same thing with ŕ: I really don't expect anybody is going to write it. All I'm saying is: let everybody use the best means he has at his disposal to represent it, it's okay as long as it is understandable for everybody. In the case of дльа you are absolutely free to write для, just like a Serb is absolutely free to write дља. Just just need to be aware of the fact that для makes it harder for Serbs, which IMO is worse than the fact that it looks kind of awkward for Russians and Ukrainians. What I am advertising here is not a new official orthography, but a different approach to the whole idea of official orthography in general. To continue the comparison with the Fiat Punto: I certainly don't expect people to drive around in unpainted cars!

The reason I opt for дльа as the "neutral" solution is twofold:

All in all, it is the least troublesome solution for all. If you compare the ј/ь solution with the Ukrainian solution, look at the number of characters people don't have at their disposal, so that either they'll need to import it, or they'll need to find a different solution:

RU 1, 2
UK 1, -
BE 2, 3
BG 1, 2
MK 1, 6
SR 1, 6

Which gives 7 for the ј/ь solution and 19 (!) for the Ukrainian solution. If option 1 is going to be troublesome for people, then how about option 2?

The second thing is consistency/logic. Look at the following scheme (Latin, ј/ь, Russian, Ukrainian):
Code:
 
a:ja:ľa --- а:ја:льа --- а:я:ля -------- а:я:ля
e:je:ľe --- е:је:лье --- э/е:е:лье/ле -- е:є:лє/лье
i:ji:ľi --- и:ји:льи --- и:и:ли -------- и:ї:лї/льи
o:jo:ľo --- о:јо:льо --- о:йо/ё:льо/лё - о:йо:льо
u:ju:ľu --- у:ју:льу --- у:ю:лю -------- y:ю:лю

And now, which of these is the most logical and transparant?

[ć]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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wannabeme
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Jarvi
Sep 6 2010, 01:29 PM
What I am affraid of is that actually nobody will use this orthography in practice. Yes, it is possible to use transliterator, but there are people who don't have unlimited access to the Internet or they want to write immediately - like on forum or chat. And it is not the pleasure to write in Latin and convert to Cyrillic after. Yes, cyrillic Slovianski is rarely used, but I used it for some my texts and forum posts. Yes, you recommend to use Ctrl+V for the missing symbol, but it would be no news that when you write a long text you use lots of Copy&Paste commands besides multiplying the missing symbol. All this - are problems that users will face trying to use the proposed orthography. You may say: everybody can write the way they prefer - and the result will be that the proposed orthography will never be used. Yes, I am agree that it is the most fair and neutral solution because it includes only the symbols known to all Cyrillic users - but there ARE practical problems. I don't know how to manage with them.
In other words you just said: I dont give a fack for Serbians and Macedonians, they are only 12 Milions people. And thats almost nobody in comparison with 180 Milions of Russians, Ukrainains and Bulgarians so prakticaly nobody would use it. So because we Russians are so unable to write j which look like latinic and we are proud of our cirlic й we are gonna write Slovianski how we are used to. And those almost nobody are almost nobody, thay can all first LEARN Russian in orther to understand Slovianski :) How nice from you big brother.
And after they have learned the whole Russian and so understand Slovianski grammar too with help of Russian. We Russians will be so genorous to give you the link where you can read instractions how to install Russian layout on your "almost nobodys" personal computers. Right?

Oh thank you our slavic brothers for your generosity.
Благодарю вамь наши брати за вашу великодушность.
Что же можемь учинити, сами криви ѥсмы что вамь дадохомь наше югословѣснке писмена а вы их после преобратисте тако да их уже весь свѣть называеть рускими.
Да вамь их ми не дадохомь доселе бысте писали арабицею.
Edited by wannabeme, Sep 6 2010, 05:54 PM.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Don't get nervous, Dražen. Andrej is actually the last person you could ever accuse of Russian chauvinism, and the problem he sketched is quite real. Like I said earlier, that's what we get for adopting a phonology that only Ukrainian orthography can handle in a reasonably consistent, non-confusing way and without the help of "imported characters". IMO Slovianski should not officially adopt any national orthography, especially since there are in fact six different major orthographies around, but simply have something that fits its phonology, that is logical and consistent, maximally understandable and not too offensive. How close a user will stay to it should depend on his own personal perferences as well as on the circumstances: if you are writing a very important communiqué for the entire Slavic world, it shouldn't be much of a problem to use a few characters you don't have at your immediate disposal, if only by simply using the transliterator. If you're in a chat session, you won't even have the time to build/look for characters, so you'll automatically use what's easiest for you. Why should Slovianski as written by a Pole or Russian have to look exactly the same as Slovianski written by a Czech, a Croat or a Serb?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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wannabeme
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If you want some OCS system with diphtonges, fine. But then make it suitable and regular. I wont tolerate any dubble E , it can be E and JE but nobody knows when, what and how. And I dont care how it looks for you, strange or not delicious, or is not pink... I dont care I am not so phoneticmetrosexual.
But untill you find something better than you use right now you are litteraly forced to accept this proposal. The curunt proposal is the nearest one to perfectness we ever had. It can be wrote by all without somebody must entirelly install Russian or Serbian or anyother keyboard layout.
Your arguments against are really really not competent and sound metrosexual, I am sorry that I must say that.
Please remind yourself what is SLovianski and what is his purose. It as an AUXILIAR language. People must understand it easely and write it easely so the other side would understand it. What is the purpose of Slovianski if Russians will be happy when they write that it look nice when a big and most important part of Slavs for Russians wont understand so many important words and characters? Anwer me that you haters of nonrussian alike beautifull layout! ;)
And what is the purpose of Slovianski if Serbs write so regular and for them beutiful alphabet if Russians and all others wont understand that.
Make YOU a system which will fulfill all functions better that those or even in the same way and I will accept it without any thinking.
Isnt that fair enough?
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wannabeme
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IJzeren Jan
Sep 6 2010, 06:16 PM
Don't get nervous, Dražen. Andrej is actually the last person you could ever accuse of Russian chauvinism, and the problem he sketched is quite real. Like I said earlier, that's what we get for adopting a phonology that only Ukrainian orthography can handle in a reasonably consistent, non-confusing way and without the help of "imported characters". IMO Slovianski should not officially adopt any national orthography, especially since there are in fact six different major orthographies around, but simply have something that fits its phonology, that is logical and consistent, maximally understandable and not too offensive. How close a user will stay to it should depend on his own personal perferences as well as on the circumstances: if you are writing a very important communiqué for the entire Slavic world, it shouldn't be much of a problem to use a few characters you don't have at your immediate disposal, if only by simply using the transliterator. If you're in a chat session, you won't even have the time to build/look for characters, so you'll automatically use what's easiest for you. Why should Slovianski as written by a Pole or Russian have to look exactly the same as Slovianski written by a Czech, a Croat or a Serb?
You are right Jan. I am sorry Jarvi for being to offensive. I am getting German more and more, also I have after tomorrow a speech for my job in the CommerzBank and these days I am totaly nervous, so sorry to everybody because of that.

I am actually for one unique orthography. The truth is that all Slavs exept some panslavists chat only in English. On youtube I have see many comments written in their own language which is good. In the last times many Polish and Slovak viewers comment on Serbian clips and many Russians too. Slovenians and Croatians have to much hater comments :) but hey slovianski doenst need to be used in nice context neither.
What I wanted to say, southslavs would understand written polish very good but they only dont even have a lust for reading when they see such szeszć przezdzie or so, becuse they dont got a clue how they should read that.

To be fair for all we could write withouth all those ćčšžčš or sz,cz. There is a nice system withouth x,y and z. I wrote with it two days ago and it was good. But it doesnt match with cirilics so I let it be.
Uf I have messed thoughts right now. Suma sumarum, in my oppinion one unique latin and one unique cirilic orthography would be the best we can offer to all Slovianski learners.

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iopq
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Actually a lot of the soft consonants are present in south slavic
революция
сядам
зяпнал
рядко
лято

but ы is not present in any South Slavic language
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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wannabeme
Sep 6 2010, 06:22 PM
If you want some OCS system with diphtonges, fine. But then make it suitable and regular. I wont tolerate any dubble E , it can be E and JE but nobody knows when, what and how. And I dont care how it looks for you, strange or not delicious, or is not pink... I dont care I am not so phoneticmetrosexual.
But untill you find something better than you use right now you are litteraly forced to accept this proposal. The curunt proposal is the nearest one to perfectness we ever had. It can be wrote by all without somebody must entirelly install Russian or Serbian or anyother keyboard layout.
Your arguments against are really really not competent and sound metrosexual, I am sorry that I must say that.
Please remind yourself what is SLovianski and what is his purose. It as an AUXILIAR language. People must understand it easely and write it easely so the other side would understand it. What is the purpose of Slovianski if Russians will be happy when they write that it look nice when a big and most important part of Slavs for Russians wont understand so many important words and characters? Anwer me that you haters of nonrussian alike beautifull layout! ;)
And what is the purpose of Slovianski if Serbs write so regular and for them beutiful alphabet if Russians and all others wont understand that.
Make YOU a system which will fulfill all functions better that those or even in the same way and I will accept it without any thinking.
Isnt that fair enough?
Well I am sorry for my message seemed offensive, but I didn't meant at all! My post even had NO hidden message saying "the system you propose is sh*t and I want to use Russian". There was no "I" in that message. All I want to say is objectively: this system can not be written on any Slavic Cyrillic layout and that's why in practice no one most likey will write it. The result is: we can accept any uniquie orthography, but who and how will write it? That's sad.
Edited by Moraczewski, Sep 7 2010, 05:59 AM.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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iopq
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actually I copy paste all my js in when I write that way
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
You know, our thinking about orthography is of course very much determined by our own orthographies and others we know, but there is one principal difference: those are all national orthographies, made to suit the needs of national languages. Slovianski is not a national language; had it been one, there would probably have been a commission for creating an orthography that would match Slovianski, and in all likeliness, that wouldn't be a borrowed one (even though it might be based on an existing one). Slovianski is an international language made for ca. 12 languages, all of which already have their own orthography. For that reason, Slovianski should also have an international orthography, that may well be based on one of the national orthographies, but should exclude national pecularities. Because it is supposed to serve a multinational audience, it should be as generic and logical as possible. Voting won't solve anything. Whatever solution we pick, there will always be people who can't write it. Unless we use ASCII, but ASCII is ASCII andd it doesn't solve the problem for Cyrillic either. A real "official orthography" should be writable for anybody, but if we exclude everything that can't be written by everybody, we'll end up with ASCII in the case of Latin and an orthography without i, j, ' in the case of Cyrillic. That's why we shouldn't treat it as anything official, just as a toolbox everybody can apply in his own way, saying: this is the real thing, if you can't write it use A or B, or otherwise C. That way everybody can write it, and no solution will be more official than another. I agree, it may be kind of confusing for some, but having an entire range of official orthographies is confusing as well, perhaps even more so. See http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/slovianski_orth.html for my proposal.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Moraczewski
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OK, Jan, but what are real practical proposals to write with the international orthography? Ctrl+V can help, but it's very limited, because when you write quite a long text, you will have to use many Copy&Paste operations with text blocks, and after each such operation you have to Ctrl+C the "j" again.
Again, people, my message is not to say "That's sh*t and let's use Russian". My message is: "Look, there are problems, how do we solve them?"
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Moraczewski
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BTW, I have no more any issue about unnaturality of this orthography. It's not unnatural, but archaic, and Drazen proved that.

And also Matija Majar used almost the same orthography for his Uzajemni Pravopis:
конь, коньа, коньi, коньу,
jаблонь

of course in his time (1863) there were no computers and he was not forced to think of keyboards and layouts.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
All in all, it is the least troublesome solution for all. If you compare the ј/ь solution with the Ukrainian solution, look at the number of characters people don't have at their disposal, so that either they'll need to import it, or they'll need to find a different solution:

RU 1, 2
UK 1, -
BE 2, 3
BG 1, 2
MK 1, 6
SR 1, 6

Which gives 7 for the ј/ь solution and 19 (!) for the Ukrainian solution. If option 1 is going to be troublesome for people, then how about option 2?


Okay, I am defeated. I still don't agree that дльа looks less offensive than e. g. длйа or that it is more logical than для, but yes, I can't present anything beter than дльа. I can't imagine me using this orthography in the real life (ergo I have just downloaded the Jan's transliterator for future offline use), but it can have a good dictionary life.
Edited by Gabriel Svoboda, Sep 7 2010, 10:40 AM.
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iopq
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Jarvi
Sep 7 2010, 10:13 AM
OK, Jan, but what are real practical proposals to write with the international orthography? Ctrl+V can help, but it's very limited, because when you write quite a long text, you will have to use many Copy&Paste operations with text blocks, and after each such operation you have to Ctrl+C the "j" again.
Again, people, my message is not to say "That's sh*t and let's use Russian". My message is: "Look, there are problems, how do we solve them?"
just use an all-in-one keyboard layout with all the cyrillic letters of every language incl j
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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wannabeme
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IJzeren Jan
Sep 7 2010, 10:08 AM
You know, our thinking about orthography is of course very much determined by our own orthographies and others we know, but there is one principal difference: those are all national orthographies, made to suit the needs of national languages. Slovianski is not a national language; had it been one, there would probably have been a commission for creating an orthography that would match Slovianski, and in all likeliness, that wouldn't be a borrowed one (even though it might be based on an existing one). Slovianski is an international language made for ca. 12 languages, all of which already have their own orthography. For that reason, Slovianski should also have an international orthography, that may well be based on one of the national orthographies, but should exclude national pecularities. Because it is supposed to serve a multinational audience, it should be as generic and logical as possible. Voting won't solve anything. Whatever solution we pick, there will always be people who can't write it. Unless we use ASCII, but ASCII is ASCII andd it doesn't solve the problem for Cyrillic either. A real "official orthography" should be writable for anybody, but if we exclude everything that can't be written by everybody, we'll end up with ASCII in the case of Latin and an orthography without i, j, ' in the case of Cyrillic. That's why we shouldn't treat it as anything official, just as a toolbox everybody can apply in his own way, saying: this is the real thing, if you can't write it use A or B, or otherwise C. That way everybody can write it, and no solution will be more official than another. I agree, it may be kind of confusing for some, but having an entire range of official orthographies is confusing as well, perhaps even more so. See http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/slovianski_orth.html for my proposal.
Do we really need soft s and z?
I really have no idea when to use them. This is one of things I never understood in Russian too. I ve been pronouncing it like normal s and z :)
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wannabeme
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Besides, anybody who want to make a layout easy or to add some characters to the exsisting one layout it is easy to do with free tools like

Keyboard Layout Manager http://www.klm32.com/Download.html (you can use it 3 moths or so to change or create layouts and after that you cannot change it anymore but what you have done it stays, it wont be undone.

This one is also good, perhaps even better. It is from Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator and completely free. But I prefer the other because I can easely change already existing layouts by only coping the wished simbol and pasting it to the key you want to place it.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964665.aspx

For example I change my Bulgarian layout to looks like this:

э 1234567890 ы =
я ю е р т з у и о п ш щ
а с д ф г х й к л ѥ ѣ ь
ч ж ц в б н м , .
Edited by wannabeme, Sep 7 2010, 11:12 AM.
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