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One more thought about orthography
Topic Started: Sep 1 2010, 09:44 AM (3,703 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
That's right. Naučný Slovjanský has a special character for that, ę. So: prębitě.

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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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tellur
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Discussion on facebook:
Ja:Btw, Jane van Steenbergene, http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/ planuješ na ovu stranicų někogdy dodati v raznyh grammatičnih sekcijah takože, jako se ovo piše v naučnom medžuslovianskom i v slovianski+ ?
Možeš viděti, že ja pišų s pomočij slovianski +, NO ne jesm si isty, kogda je pisati (zvlaštno ų v padežah ženskyh vzorov i v zaimenikah)...Prosto, ne imajų oporu. :)
JvS:
JvS:Hehe, znam, znam. :)
Da, dobro by bylo něgdě podati te formy, ale ne jesm hotěl togo dělati na glĺvnoj strĺnici s gramatikojų. Bojim sę, že to odstrašilo by ľudi. A dvě paralelne gramatiki takože ne sųt dobry pomysl. Ješče ne věm, kak to razvęzati.
JvS:I druga věč: NMS ješče ne je definitivny, a S+ to toliki sųt moje vlastne sugestije. Ja prvo byh hotěl to vse dobro prediskutovati.

What do you others think?
Edited by tellur, Jan 3 2012, 07:02 PM.
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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bandziol20
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tellur
Jan 3 2012, 06:59 PM
(zvlaštno ų v padežah ženskyh vzorov i v zaimenikah)
I don't know exactly what you were talking about.
For femine nouns with vocal-ending (-i, -a) in Nom., -ų is an ending of Acc. sing., for those femine with consonant-ending -ų is of ending in Instr. sing. (while in Acc. is zero-ending).
I don't know what ending is femine nouns with vocal-ending for Instr. sing.: -oj (Russian, but also in some places of Slovene area ;) ) , -ojų (Ukrainian), -oų (Czech-Slovak), -om (Serbo-Croatian) :?
BTW : I'm just curious, is "zvlaštno" a standard Slovianski form ? Where does it come from ? We have in Polish a similar word : zwłaszcza 'especially'.
Edited by bandziol20, Jan 4 2012, 11:56 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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tellur
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bandziol20
Jan 4 2012, 11:52 AM
tellur
Jan 3 2012, 06:59 PM
(zvlaštno ų v padežah ženskyh vzorov i v zaimenikah)
I don't know exactly what you were talking about.
For femine nouns with vocal-ending (-i, -a) in Nom., -ų is an ending of Acc. sing., for those femine with consonant-ending -ų is of ending in Instr. sing. (while in Acc. is zero-ending).
I didn't quite get what you meant...SG:
N:žena
G:(bez) ženy
D:(k) ženě
A:(pro) ?ženų? or ženu?
V:ženo!
L:(ob) ženě
I:(s) ženojų

KOSŤ sg
N:kosť
G:(bez) kosti
D:(ko) kosti
A:(pro) kosť
V:kosti!
L:(ob) kosti
I:(s) kostijų?
Plural and dual of those two are clear for me, I just need that singular :D
Quote:
 

BTW : I'm just curious, is "zvlaštno" a standard Slovianski form ? Where does it come from ? We have in Polish a similar word : zwłaszcza 'especially'.

Well, it's a Czech word zvláště written with our ortography. I was way too lazy to search it in dictionary. zvlašče could work too imo and sounds more slovianskish
If similar word forms exist in our languages, then why not add it, right? If it's not an established one ofc :D
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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bandziol20
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tellur
Jan 4 2012, 01:09 PM

A:(pro) ?ženų? or ženu?

"ženų" if you use "ų" character. In Polish it is nasal : Widzę żonę. (pro + A. ? - hm... since there's no "pro" in Polish (except in Latin idioms : pro publico bono, pro domo sua etc.), I don't know. )

Quote:
 

I:(s) ženojų

Well, I'm not quite sure about it, but there is a big chance for that, since IJzeren prefers "expanded" solutions.

Quote:
 

I:(s) kostijų?

I think "s kost'ų" sounds better, but I'm not sure.

Quote:
 

If similar word forms exist in our languages, then why not add it, right?

Yes, let's do it. Once Old Czech had got zvláščě. Czech has got also zvlášť 'separately, apart'.
Czech : Zabalte mi, prosím, ty knihy každou zvlášť.
Polish : Proszę zapakować mi te książki każdą osobno / z osobna.
English : Pack me each of these books apart, please.

Slovene has got zlasti 'especially' (Old Slovene & Croatian - izvlasti), but also nalašč 'on purpose', Croatian has got navlaš 'intentionally; purposely' (with loosing the last consonant -t ? comp. Croatian još, but Polish jeszcze, Slovak : ešte) :P
Edited by bandziol20, Jan 4 2012, 05:35 PM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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steeven
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tellur
Jan 4 2012, 01:09 PM
Quote:
 
BTW : I'm just curious, is "zvlaštno" a standard Slovianski form ? Where does it come from ? We have in Polish a similar word : zwłaszcza 'especially'.

Well, it's a Czech word zvláště written with our ortography. I was way too lazy to search it in dictionary. zvlašče could work too imo and sounds more slovianskish
If similar word forms exist in our languages, then why not add it, right? If it's not an established one ofc :D
osoblivy - osoblivo
ru = особенный, конкретный, особый | особенно
be = асаблівы | асабліва
uk = особливий
pl = szczególności, osobliwy, określony | osobliwie, szczególnie, zwłaszcza
cs = zvláštní, důkladný, osobitý | zejména, zvláště
sk = zvláštny, osobitný | najmä, zvlášť
sl = poseben, podroben | predvsem, podrobno, zlasti
hr = poseban, osobit, naročit | naročito, osobito
sr = посебан, особит, нарочит | нарочито, особито
mk = дделен, особен | особено
bg = особен | особено

Under the new classification of "LEVELS", "zvlastno / zvlašče" would be classified as Level 3 - less than 2 votes, but with other qualifiers

Edited by steeven, Jan 4 2012, 05:26 PM.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
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it's kostjų to be consistent with our videnje/primorje convention
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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I don't know much about the Slovianski convention. However, in Slovak actually is : kare s kosťou, but videnie, prímorie.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
Administrator
you can't count on individual languages to preserve etymology in obscure cases
as long as some languages like Russian preserve the correct form, there's no reason to make new analogic forms

Czech/Slovak are particularly terrible in their conjugation and declension because of their vowel systems
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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? I don't understand.
What do you mean saying Russian preserves the correct form and Slovak doesn't ? why ? In Russian there's actually : костью (kost'ju), приморье (primor'je), видение (vidienije).
How do you find it more correct ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
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bandziol20
Jan 11 2012, 11:30 AM
? I don't understand.
What do you mean saying Russian preserves the correct form and Slovak doesn't ? why ? In Russian there's actually : костью (kost'ju), приморье (primor'je), видение (vidienije).
How do you find it more correct ?
there's also счастье, печенье
видение is a church slavonism because it has the yer tensing
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
bandziol20
Jan 11 2012, 11:30 AM
? I don't understand.
What do you mean saying Russian preserves the correct form and Slovak doesn't ? why ? In Russian there's actually : костью (kost'ju), приморье (primor'je), видение (vidienije).
How do you find it more correct ?
"More correct" is perhaps not the most fortunate way of putting it. "More authentic" or "closer to the original" or "more conservative" would be closer to the truth. Kostьjǫ is precisely the form Proto-Slavic and OCS had. NMS represents that very same thing as kosťjų. In Slovianski (as a spelling device to avoid unnecessary diacritics or apostrophes) we are this as kostju.

But mind, kostju and kosťu are not the same thing. To be precise: KOSTЬJǪ ->

  • East Slavic: KOSTЬJŲ -> RU костью, UK косттю
  • West Slavic: KOSŤŲ -> PL kością, SK kosťou
  • South Slavic KOSTJŲ -> SH košću

Because every group has its own way of dealing with tense jers, it's important to distinguish it from other jers.

Vojta and I have different opinions about the best way of dealing with this. Vojta prefers full vocalisation, and that's why NS has kostij (instr.sg, gen.pl.), vidienije. My own preference would be sticking to the original, which is kosťju, kosti/kostej, viděňje. As Igor wrote:
Quote:
 
видение is a church slavonism because it has the yer tensing

Exactly. The thing about tense jers is that it was longer than a weak jer, but shorter than a strong jer. What matters is that it did not just lengthen under the influence of j, it also swallowed it. Hence jьmati > imati, jměti, mieć itd. (but not jimati).

The thing with this vocalisation of tense jers is that an overwhelming majority of the Slavic languages doesn't it, and there is not a single languages that does it consistently. Even in Old Church Slavonic writers seemed to hesitate between -ьje and -ije, although the latter was predominant.

One thing I've been wondering about. Since Russian -ие was written as -іе before 1917, and this і was also used in words like соціализм, could it be that this character, when followed by e signified -ьје rather than -ије?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Moraczewski
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IJzeren Jan
Jan 12 2012, 12:43 AM
One thing I've been wondering about. Since Russian -ие was written as -іе before 1917, and this і was also used in words like соціализм, could it be that this character, when followed by e signified -ьје rather than -ије?
No. We pronounce социализм as со-ци-а-лизм. I don't think that we pronounced it other way before 1917.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Shortly before 1917 yes. After all, the merger of і/и and ѣ/е didn't come without a reason. But two centuries earlier?

Now I don't know exactly in what kind of positions і was used. But I noticed f.ex. піявка vs. пьяный, пѣшій and the suffix -ніе, all of which point to a tense jer.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Moraczewski
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IJzeren Jan
Jan 12 2012, 08:08 AM
Now I don't know exactly in what kind of positions і was used. But I noticed f.ex. піявка vs. пьяный, пѣшій and the suffix -ніе, all of which point to a tense jer.
It's very simple. "i" was used for syllabic [ i ] before vowels and before "j".
Edited by Moraczewski, Jan 12 2012, 03:30 PM.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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