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| One more thought about orthography | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 1 2010, 09:44 AM (3,705 Views) | |
| wannabeme | Sep 12 2010, 06:04 PM Post #106 |
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ih, imeno ![]() их, имено |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 12 2010, 06:17 PM Post #107 |
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Why? If it is not i but ji?? I can not catch the logic. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 12 2010, 07:01 PM Post #108 |
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The logic is this. Do you pronounce in Russian imja or jimja? |
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| iopq | Sep 12 2010, 07:29 PM Post #109 |
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actually it's based on the greek Η which sounds like [и] Edited by iopq, Sep 12 2010, 07:29 PM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 12 2010, 07:34 PM Post #110 |
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This is not correct logic, because the logical outcome from your message is: "Write as Russians pronounce". I don't understand. You told that there is perfect Methodius' system: a ja e je u ju o jo i ji then you go
and now you write that you are not gonna use ji |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 12 2010, 07:46 PM Post #111 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Of course not, but many of the inconsistencies of the current systems are the result of evolution. Every language is what it is because of certain sound changes, and applying them to one perfectly regular verb will spawn irregular verbs in every language. That's why it's always useful to go back to the source, and that's also why Common Slavic - even though Slovianski is in no way officially connected to it - plays a very prominent role in the creation of words. The same can also be said about orthography. But like I said, any cyrillisation of Naučni Slovianski would make it look extremely archaic and thus would defy the whole idea behind N.S. So anybody who wants to play with the idea is most welcome do to so, but I doubt very much if the result will ever by anything near useful.
Yes, I quite agree. I've been a bit reluctant on this one, but indeed, I feel inclined to switch this one to ô - unless anybody objects, of course.
I thought about that. But there's one disadvantage: Slovianski does not have d or t in these positions, neither should it have them as they exist in West Slavic only. If Naučni Slovianski is just Slovianski + diacritics, then we can't have them d's and t's here. But I also feel they should SOMEHOW be represented anyway, preferably without resorting to Latin Extended Additional, combining diacritics and the like. Because Ĺ and Ľ are already taken, and Ł would be too confusing for Poles, there's only two solutions left in Latin Extended-A: Ļ and Ŀ. Or go for the easier solution, namely write "mo`liti" (` is already functional in cases like s`delati; here is doesn't represent a jer, of course, but we could use it for "anything that disappears").
Sure, but any input is greatly appreciated! So if any of you find something is missing, or something could be missed, don't hesitate to mention it! [ч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 12 2010, 09:26 PM Post #112 |
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Yeah, thats what you would say when you see "eta" but the fact is that eta is E not I. And the fact is that н always is softening and it really does look like two I. It is only my idea. I have never read or heard such a thing anywhere. We dont know what Methodius was thinking but I am trying to find some logic and reason in everything. Usualy people who are constructers like Methodius think that way.
Ok Jarvi, I said following: 1) Oldslavs used to use both i (like Belorussians use today) and и (which meant ji). 2) Russians particulary melt i and и and write и everywhere. Thus, on the place where it should be и and on the place where i should be. 3) So Oldslavs wrote iмѧ = imę. Russians made i=и and now they write имя but they still say imja and not jimja AFIK. 4) There is logic, you only must give me a chance to explain it to you. Sometimes things are not so like they seem to be on the first look. Edited by wannabeme, Sep 12 2010, 09:30 PM.
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| Moraczewski | Sep 13 2010, 06:23 AM Post #113 |
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1) No, Belarusians use today only i, it is softening. Ukrainians also use i but not in the same positions where Old Slavic had i. 2) Do you mean that one was softening and the other not? 3) That's true, but CZ write jimeno and not imeno. 4) So please explain, why aren't you going to use ji? or where are you going to use it? |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 13 2010, 04:11 PM Post #114 |
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1) OK 2) Yes 3) But Czech pronounse imeno, sem and write jimeno, jsem 4) We must agree about softening first. When is gonna be softened and how. I cannot tell you right now, must research first. 5) You will get the anwer as soon as possible. 6) Try to research too! |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 13 2010, 05:07 PM Post #115 |
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2) but I don't know when it was not softening. in pre-1917 Russian "i" was used in words like знанiе and it was softening also! Non-softening was only ы |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 13 2010, 09:28 PM Post #116 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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From a more contemporary point of view, I'd say it's more like this: a ja e je u ju o jo y (j)i Because y can never occur at the beginning of a word or syllable, it doesn't really matter whether we'd have initial i- or initial ji-. Some languages (Polish, Russian, Bulgarian) exclude the possibility of ji, while some languages (Czech, Ukrainian) seem to distinguish between initial i- and ji-, although I don't know on what grounds. The current solution is that i- is always used at the beginning of words, and -ji- after a vowel (like in svojih) etc. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 14 2010, 01:59 AM Post #117 |
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Yeah, exept if we have jo - e rule. Than there is no jo as a softening character but only as j+o. |
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| iopq | Sep 14 2010, 02:40 AM Post #118 |
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At the beginning of a word Ukrainian has і in the cases where it was a reflex of *ei , while it has ї in the cases where it was a reflex of *ѣ In the middle of the word it also has it in pronouns and on mopheme boundaries where one morpheme ends in й and the next begins with і or и Edited by iopq, Sep 16 2010, 01:11 AM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Oct 14 2010, 12:36 PM Post #119 |
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How should I write prĕbiti or přebiti? The first is better for Ukrainians and the second for Poles and Czechs. What is your oppinion? |
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| iopq | Oct 15 2010, 01:41 AM Post #120 |
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prebiti since the reflex of *er in Slovianski is re, not rĕ or ře |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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