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One more thought about orthography
Topic Started: Sep 1 2010, 09:44 AM (3,707 Views)
Moraczewski
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IJzeren Jan
Sep 6 2010, 12:33 AM
Just like that, why should a Czech write deń or den' if he has deň on his keyboard?
Czechs and Slovaks should be the happiest people on Earth because their keyboard is 100% suitable for typing Slovianski. They can type whatever they want, even what is never used in Slavic languages like ü or ĺ. Even ń is easier to type than ň.
Edited by Moraczewski, Sep 6 2010, 03:33 AM.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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wannabeme
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Jarvi
Sep 6 2010, 03:29 AM
Uff it is all so complicated.
OK probably you are right. It is only that I will never write йужни. but then it's my own whim.

OFFTOP:
It is so strange, Dražen, that you kept silence about the words you don't understand until now. It discourages me much when I write some Slovianski text, show it to people and ask: "Please guys, tell me do you understand the whole text and tell me which words you don't understand", and everybody answers: "I understand almost all of this", everything seems shiny and then after months all of sudden I realize that they don't understand hell lots of words but they said nothing. It is not only this forum, mostly about Slavic Unity forum.
Jarvi, I am only in this Forum, and before was only in WordReferenceForums. I understand those words Jarvi because I have studied the whole Bibel in Churchslavonic in the forest, with my goats, when I was kid. After that I was in some strange old library in my school which nobody visited for decades reading some church books because I wanted to became a prister. Than I found old letters of Bosnian and Serbian dukes from 13 century and was studing them alone. I think nobody ever knew they were in there in the library.
After I came to Germany and got the internet I was so curious that I study every Indoeuropean language old and new, the grammar, similarities and so on. Later I was in Russia alone for months and had to learn to comunicate with people so I have spoken Russian within 2 Weeks :)
Thats how I know all what every of you is writing. But if I forgot or ignore all I have learned the situation is such as I said in the previous post. How do you expect from a person who has never learned any slavic language exept BCS to know what do all those grammatical stuff mean they have never heard. When I was in the 7th class I saw in some old Serbian epics the word ljubimi. Do you know how long I was asking myself what this means. I mean I could assume it is something like "ljubljeni" but I had never heard such a word ever before. And after a few years I had to hear this word every day 100 times from my Russian speaking ex-fiancee (And when she was angry she spoke to me only sikter sukin syn, anane kuydim, blyad, valla ne seviirem bu budale :) )
So dont be discouraged, Jarvi, I myself want to help about creating Slovianski and give much time and efforts into it. I want to write the dictionary at least 5000 words by comparing all slavic languages and taking only words which are same or similar. I already know what Southslavs understand mostely, so I only need to watch into Polish, Slovak, Ukrainian and Russian mainly. But to write a dictionary I need some orthography and the curent was so unstable and so not clear and could be changed every moment. So I waited untill you all can agree to one orthography but its little bit dissapointed what I read here in the last time. Sometimes I got thoughts like, man, I could make all of this alone by some principles and discipline, orthography, grammar, words. Its really hard to work with people who complain all the time and never give an idea or make an effort to finish Slovianski. But I dont want to make my own thing because Jan and many heres done already very good and fair job and I really want to help and be part of the team. So dont be discouraged but keep looking foreward to find some final solutions.
Dont ask others too much and dont believe them to much because those people already have to much knowing and are to much involved. You must only ask yourself what would you do or understand if you wouldnt ever have been involved in some other slavic language. For me its easy and if I cannot do it. I ask some strange regular people about it.
Edited by wannabeme, Sep 6 2010, 04:58 AM.
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Moraczewski
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Thank you. I understand what you are about. Yes, I see that you are willing to help Slovianski and you have been making much effort to do that. But why had you then been so silent about the words that South Slavs will not understand untill now you told that? This is the most valuable information that a South Slav can give to us. We can not look at Slovianski from Southern Slavic point of view. Only you can tell us how it looks like.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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wannabeme
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Jarvi
Sep 6 2010, 05:29 AM
Thank you. I understand what you are about. Yes, I see that you are willing to help Slovianski and you have been making much effort to do that. But why had you then been so silent about the words that South Slavs will not understand untill now you told that? This is the most valuable information that a South Slav can give to us. We can not look at Slovianski from Southern Slavic point of view. Only you can tell us how it looks like.
Jarvi, this a matter of the grammer. We simply have some other declensions, but we cannot change the grammar of Slovianski because it is how it should be. And people will be able to understand more if they take a look on it. The only problem for BCS speakers could be genitive plural and locative plural. It is really gonna take a while for BCSs to get used to -ov in the genitive only for masculine. They will probably put -ov to feminine and neutrum nouns too.
And about locative well, they will sometimes mix it up with dative so you will often hear na knigam or na knigami instead of na knigah :) That was my experience. But if they see one time the -ov and -ah they will understand it when they see. But not being able to use it themself at the beginning.
But Jarvi truely you cannot expect me to be in charge with every single word. If I see I have no chanse because BCS is outvoted than I will keep my mouth shut. And when I see it is half half I have a chanse than I will tell something. You see that I am now telling about terjati is not good for BCS and Slovenians and that we have gubiti but Russians say that other way around gubiti conflictes with Russian so it is already decided. And it not about that word yet but only I am telling you that for some words you just cannot do anything. The strongest wins and other must learn one word more :) And no matter how much I want to change it because my nation dont understand it well, I must think from the aspect of the slavic majority.
Edited by wannabeme, Sep 6 2010, 06:01 AM.
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Moraczewski
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Well, but at least for information, we have to be aware, that some words are not understandable to BCS speakers - just for this it is not good to keep your mouth shut! You say, we see and if there is really nothing to do, we shall nothing to do, but if there is?
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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iopq
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wannabeme
Sep 6 2010, 04:51 AM
Jarvi
Sep 6 2010, 03:29 AM
Uff it is all so complicated.
OK probably you are right. It is only that I will never write йужни. but then it's my own whim.

OFFTOP:
It is so strange, Dražen, that you kept silence about the words you don't understand until now. It discourages me much when I write some Slovianski text, show it to people and ask: "Please guys, tell me do you understand the whole text and tell me which words you don't understand", and everybody answers: "I understand almost all of this", everything seems shiny and then after months all of sudden I realize that they don't understand hell lots of words but they said nothing. It is not only this forum, mostly about Slavic Unity forum.
Jarvi, I am only in this Forum, and before was only in WordReferenceForums. I understand those words Jarvi because I have studied the whole Bibel in Churchslavonic in the forest, with my goats, when I was kid. After that I was in some strange old library in my school which nobody visited for decades reading some church books because I wanted to became a prister. Than I found old letters of Bosnian and Serbian dukes from 13 century and was studing them alone. I think nobody ever knew they were in there in the library.
After I came to Germany and got the internet I was so curious that I study every Indoeuropean language old and new, the grammar, similarities and so on. Later I was in Russia alone for months and had to learn to comunicate with people so I have spoken Russian within 2 Weeks :)
Thats how I know all what every of you is writing. But if I forgot or ignore all I have learned the situation is such as I said in the previous post. How do you expect from a person who has never learned any slavic language exept BCS to know what do all those grammatical stuff mean they have never heard. When I was in the 7th class I saw in some old Serbian epics the word ljubimi. Do you know how long I was asking myself what this means. I mean I could assume it is something like "ljubljeni" but I had never heard such a word ever before. And after a few years I had to hear this word every day 100 times from my Russian speaking ex-fiancee (And when she was angry she spoke to me only sikter sukin syn, anane kuydim, blyad, valla ne seviirem bu budale :) )
So dont be discouraged, Jarvi, I myself want to help about creating Slovianski and give much time and efforts into it. I want to write the dictionary at least 5000 words by comparing all slavic languages and taking only words which are same or similar. I already know what Southslavs understand mostely, so I only need to watch into Polish, Slovak, Ukrainian and Russian mainly. But to write a dictionary I need some orthography and the curent was so unstable and so not clear and could be changed every moment. So I waited untill you all can agree to one orthography but its little bit dissapointed what I read here in the last time. Sometimes I got thoughts like, man, I could make all of this alone by some principles and discipline, orthography, grammar, words. Its really hard to work with people who complain all the time and never give an idea or make an effort to finish Slovianski. But I dont want to make my own thing because Jan and many heres done already very good and fair job and I really want to help and be part of the team. So dont be discouraged but keep looking foreward to find some final solutions.
Dont ask others too much and dont believe them to much because those people already have to much knowing and are to much involved. You must only ask yourself what would you do or understand if you wouldnt ever have been involved in some other slavic language. For me its easy and if I cannot do it. I ask some strange regular people about it.
if you're going to write a dictionary, write it in Nauczni Slovianski
it is directly convertable into any orthography
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Sep 8 2010, 04:03 AM
if you're going to write a dictionary, write it in Nauczni Slovianski
it is directly convertable into any orthography
It's an interesting thought. It won't work for Cyrillics though: I have constructed Naučni Slovianski in such way that it can indeed very easily be read as ordinary Slovianski: just remove the diacritics and there you are (with two exceptions: ĺ > o and y > i). The same thing won't work for Cyrillics: the only credible Cyrillic alternative for ě is ѣ, and I can't even think of a sensible Cyrillic alternative for ý. Unless we'd use all kinds of combining diacritics, but they rarely give the desired effect.

The problem of those two exceptions COULD be solved by using ô instead of ĺ (which would match the ę in bręg), but we'd lose the funny a/o effect of ĺ) and ı (dotless i) instead of y (but there's no way that would increase understandability, and y would still be the more natural solution).

Until now, I've treated Naučni Slovianski more like a supplement to Slovianski, not really integrated in the real Slovianski yet. For the future, I have ideas about a highly flexible language with a flexible phonology, a flexible orthography and a flexible grammar, so that people can decide for themselves how easy they want to make it for themselves, which would mostly depend on the purpose they want to use Slovianski for. That would include anything from Naučni Slovianski, via Slovianski Plus (ordinary Slovianski with only a few helpful additions, say y, ě and ę) and normal Slovianski to Slovianto (no distinction between hard and soft consonants at all). What goes for the orthography (from very simple to very rich) can go for grammar as well: Slovianto is a kind of simplified Slovianski-P, while Naučni Slovianski could have a less simplified grammar with noun/verb classes and the like. There might be a few lexical differences as well (like, there's no real reason to have imeno in NS) but for the rest, the dictionary would be the same.

But for the moment Naučni Slovianski is far from final yet. I'm still not sure how precise it should be. I have considered a special character for e resulting from the o/e rule (finally decided that would be pushing it), and at the moment there's nothing for dl/tl > l sequences; sure, Polish ł could be an option, but I'd rather avoid using characters in a very different way from what they are used for in natlangs, and other solution would require combining diacritics. Likewise, there's no current solution for third palatalisation either. Or for palatalising vs. non-palatalising e. However, the more additional diacritics there are, the more the final result will look messy and unfriendly. There must be some point where the gains from giving additional information don't justify the loss of clarity anymore, and ten different diacritics over e will only make things confusing.

There's also one little grammatical issue I haven't figured out yet. If ľna is the logical genitive of len, then what would be the logical genitive of deń: ďńa or dńa, and if the latter, how would we explain the difference?

I also think that if the dictionary is in Naučni Slovianski, the same should go for the grammar, the main page and the text samples. And frankly, I'm afraid this will scare off a lot of people. So for now I'd rather treat Naučni Slovianski as the source code of Slovianski, available to those who are interested in it, but without giving the impression that it is there to substitute Slovianski in any way.
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Sep 8 2010, 12:16 PM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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if you're going to write nauczni slovianski in cyrillic you're going to have to write it in the historical orthography that's been slightly modernized (like substituting е for є and у for ѹ) and has no connection whatsoever to the current one

Что jа имам в виду jе вѧт́е универсальна орѳографиja ктора вьxем годьна.

In this example I tried to demonstrate that the word что will be converted to "што" by some speakers and "чо" by others
вѧт́е is written that way so it doesn't matter what our reflex of the front nasal is, ja or e
and it doesn't matter what our reflex of a soft т is
it currently converts into вече
вьхем might be overdoing it, though (second palatalization)

note both универсальна and годьна have a fill vowel in the cases of универсален and годен which is what I represent, not the fact that l keeps softness (since the d doesn't)
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Funny! Have you noticed that just a week or so ago somebody else suggested a Cyrillic orthography for Naučni Slovianski as well? Look here: http://www.conlanger.fora.pl/conlangi,2/przepis-na-dobry-slavlang,1630-84.html

Instead of т' I'd rather use Serbian ћ, because it's use in precisely those positions.

But in general, I can't really see any use for a Naučni Slovianski in Cyrillic right now. Except perhaps that it would be an interesting exercise.

[ć]
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iopq
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well I want to distinguish between k acute and t acute because they give different reflexes in different daughter languages
like Bg. вече vs. дъщеря
Srb. веће vs. ћерка

the difference is that the proposed cyrillic for nauczni slovianski in that thread is a transliteration of your nauczni slovianski
my nauczni slovianski looks like this:

Medjuslovjěnĭský językŭ moge bytĭ veliká pomogĭ dlę pǫtujǫtjihŭ i tŭgĭ dobró orǫdĭje dlę tyhŭ, kŭtoré hŭtjętŭ naukiti sę jednŭgo ili vętje slovjěnĭskyhŭ językovŭ.
Edited by iopq, Sep 9 2010, 12:30 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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I like Jan's NS better because it is not only for scientists, it also makes the language much more understandable, while your is more "old" and requires much effort to read and understand.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Jarvi
Sep 9 2010, 02:26 AM
I like Jan's NS better because it is not only for scientists, it also makes the language much more understandable, while your is more "old" and requires much effort to read and understand.
well, I'm mostly having cyrillic in mind

Jan: L can carry palatalization despite neighboring consonants, while D can't

szkola -> szkolĭný > szkoljni
szkoda -> szkodĭný > szkodni

in dnja the D is assumed to be "soft" due to contact with N while L can be anything and has to be specified to be soft
Edited by iopq, Sep 9 2010, 11:25 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yeah, but just like we have prośba and groźba, there's also hod'ba and svat'ba. And there's a word like t'ma. It's not only the following consonant that does the trick, but also its quality. The impression I'm getting that all this only happens when the next consonant is dental/alveolar as well. It's probably so that the first consonant simply takes the quality of the second, no matter whether it's hard or soft, and it depends from language to language whether this difference is written or not. F.ex. Polish has ciąć > ja tnę, ty tniesz, but also ciemność/ćma. Languages further south even seem to harden L in these cases. Even Czech and Slovak have školni instead of škoľni. But still boŕba!

I guess the simplest rule for Slovianski is to assume that both soft and hard dentals are always written hard in front of another dental. So len ~ lna, deń ~ dńa, moŕe ~ morski, škola ~ školni. So we keep prośba and ľgati. The alternative solution could work as well, but then we'd get d'ńa and moŕski as well. Possibility nr. 3 is that the consonant simply doesn't change at all: deń > d'ńa, but *doń > dńa.

As for a Cyrillic edition of Naučni Slovianski, it can't really see much of a purpose for it. If anything, we could use it for the creation of some sort of "modern Church Slavonic", but frankly, why should we? Especially since Vojta's Novoslovienskij is already doing a better job at that anyway.

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iopq
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well b' doesn't even exist so *pros'b'a is not even a possibility
and L behaves differently from d in this case in Slovak, Polish, East Slavic

so there's assimilation by softness in the case of t/d/r/s/z based on whether the next consonant is soft but not for L which keeps its own softness/hardness
but l can make other consonants soft
for example misl' should be pronounced [mis'l'] no matter how we decide to spell it
with the usual disclaimer that it's fine to pronounce it any way you want, but the idea is that softness goes through reverse assimilation except in the case of L which keeps its original softness
Edited by iopq, Sep 9 2010, 05:15 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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Quote:
 

So we keep prośba and ľgati.

Sorry, what is ľgati?
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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