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| One more thought about orthography | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 1 2010, 09:44 AM (3,708 Views) | |
| wannabeme | Sep 5 2010, 08:47 PM Post #61 |
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Yes, You Russians are able to type this on your keyboard. Serbians will understand this. But if you type коня коню Serbians wont understand it. The same way if Serbians type џек пот, Петровић, проповеђ you Russians wont be able to understand this. The best and the fairest thing we can do is to make an intersection of all cirilic alphabets and we get letters which everybody can type. Plus only one sign for everybody "j" for Russians and they can write it in latin or can only copy and then everytime they need it use Ctrl+V. The same for Serbians and ь. But that is only if somebody cannot or will not install a Slovianski keyboard or modify his own. But it seems that nonslavic users has to install it anyway in order to write Slovianski. After all we live in the world of technology, today every little kid can high jack or hack something and not to mention about installing a layout. What I propose is somehow logic. камен камена конь коньа н твердо нь мекко so our softness doesnt hang at the mercy of vowels but at the mercy of an independent softening sign. In the case of cirilyc ь and latinic for now apostroph but somebody wants to replace it with some other sign than ok but the system doesnt change and we can be satisfied with cirilyc for all times. Edited by wannabeme, Sep 5 2010, 08:49 PM.
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| Moraczewski | Sep 5 2010, 08:57 PM Post #62 |
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Hm it is very strange. I know many people, and Serbians also, who shout: "What the hell, we don't need any interlanguage, we are able to understand each others native languages!" Many people, and also Serbs, told me that they do understand Russian. But if they are going to understand Russian, with its historical orthography, then somehow they manage to understand ю я? And then Ukrainian-written Slovianski will be even more understandable for those people. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 5 2010, 09:14 PM Post #63 |
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Let me say you one thing. Serbs like to overregg the pudding that they are very similar to Russians because they feel that Russians are some "pobratimi" nation because of orthodoxy or some kinda Russian helped to Serbs with Turks. And because some stupid Russofiles say that Serbs are Russians who came to Balcans and so on. In fact when they heare Russians they wont understand almost nothing. And when they read they will understand many words and the idea too. But they will never recognize ja and ju and they will never assume the softening after i and e. So that people who told you that, wanted only that you feel flattered or they have learned Russian. In fact Serbs have so little or almost no contact with other Slavs exept other ex-Yugos. We have contact with Italians, with Germans with Hungarians in Serbia but no regular Serbian or Croatian will ever be able to even recognize Slovak and not to think it would be a Slovenian. The same for Russian and Ukrainian. About Polish I shouldnt say anything. They would be some Russians trying to speak French ![]() Edited by wannabeme, Sep 5 2010, 09:19 PM.
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| Moraczewski | Sep 5 2010, 09:22 PM Post #64 |
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But then you must have some contact to Bulgarians, who use я ю I am just asking because now it seems that I misunderstand some basic things Edited by Moraczewski, Sep 5 2010, 09:23 PM.
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 5 2010, 09:33 PM Post #65 |
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So you want to say that after reading this: Словځнски е словځнски меджуезик изтворьени в годе 2006 как сотруднично усилье групи лڬдьев из розличних краев, сбираних в Словځнски Форум. Он може бити велика помоч длځ путуڬчих и много употребимо орудье длځ либокого, ктори би хотел адресовати цели словځнски свет посредством вебсайтов, форумов, списов э-мейлских и.т.д., без потребованځ преводити текст в розне езики. Знанье того езика уможливи чловеку бити розумеми длځ либокторого говорителځ словځнского езика и розумети вечей, неж толко основу текста в либоктором словځнском езике. Словځнски тож е много добра метода длځ тих, кторе хочут начети учити се своего первого словځнского езика. a Serb will not understand that ځ means ja and ڬ means ju? |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 5 2010, 09:48 PM Post #66 |
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Jarvi, Serbs came to Balcan from Lusatia in order to fight with Bulgarians. Through whole hystory Bulgarians wery very strong on the Balkans. They fought against Byzant and guess who always stopped them! One time Bulgarians attacked little Rascia ( one of many serbian provinces, today called Serbia) and than Rascia conquered big part of western Bulgaria which included Belgrade and the whole southeastern part of Serbia, even Kosovo and Macedonia. That was in 11 ct. and many Bulgarians hate Serbs even todays because of that. What do you think why Torlakian dialects are so similar, if even not the same with western Bulgarian (also called Torlakian) dialects and why the half of Macedonia is in Bulgaria. Or why Serbian language today is ekavian and only Serbian Torlakian dialects are ekavian and those others are jekavian? Because everything eastern from Morava was Bulgarian and those people who are calling themselves Serbs are infact serbizied Bulgarians or better saying, they were first bulgarized Romans and after that serbized Bulgarians. They dont know this and if I would try to tell anywhere that 1/2 of Serbia are not Serbians they would kill me and say I am some Albanian shit. But all in all, this is the reason why Serbians and Bulgarians have bad relationships and almost no contact. And not to mention that Bulgarians were almost on German side in the WWI and WWII. Even Macedonians and Bulgarians have bad relationships so far I know. |
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| gossips | Sep 5 2010, 10:15 PM Post #67 |
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Holly shit, are you serious? I wont switch to other layout every time, when i need to type "j", it's a hell load of needless work. And I dont think that ordinary Serbs, who are using Slovianski, would be happy with another layout only for soft sign, too. But I have nothing to say against the idea of using consonant+ь+vowel for softening and й+vowel for jotation. Words with йу and йа look strange and ugly for me, but i can live with it. |
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Višla matka kuročka, S nej mali kuriati: "Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko, Nesimati hoditi daleko!" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 5 2010, 10:24 PM Post #68 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Then I will also permit myself to ask the question whether a Russian would understand the following: Слов*ански *е слов*ански меджу*език изтворьени в годе 2006 как сотруднично усилье групи людьев из розличних кра*ев, сбираних в Слов*ански Форум. Он може бити велика помоч дльа путу*учих и много употребимо орудье дльа либокого, ктори би хотел адресовати цели слов*ански свет посредством вебса*тов, форумов, списов е-ме*лских и.т.д., без потребованьа преводити текст в розне *езики. Знанье того *езика уможливи чловеку бити розумеми дльа либокторого говорительа слов*анского *езика и розумети вече*, неж толко основу текста в либоктором слов*анском *езике. Слов*ански тож *е много добра метода дльа тих, кторе хочут начети учити се сво*его первого слов*анского *езика. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 5 2010, 10:26 PM Post #69 |
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Its not on me to jugde because I can tell you that clause in the middle of night because I read it 100 times already. But if I would be a regular Serbian student with academic high school this clause would iniciate such thoughts in my head: sotrudnično - no clue usilje - some force grupi - yes but not as gen. sing. ljedev - people, but no idea what case, perhaps some comic plural without i kraev - end, but I would ask myself how the hell those Macedonians can only pronounce e after a, strange. sbiranih - no clue dl* - hmmm WTF this must have written same Croatian, he mixes cirilic and latin (dl + R) putu*čih - hmmm, something with put upotrebimo - ok we use, but what? orude - hmmm orati or so ??? libokogo - Ach I remember ... Ih libe dir , or so:) ktori - aaaa I know , that mean who in Slovenian vebsajtov, forumov , sposov - those Macedonians, when they have no puškata, they have puškava rozumemi - Is that I undertand or , we understand hmmm než - hmmm nož + jež, funny tolko = so much liboktorom - again some "Liebe" + orati, some agro...thing All in all you ask me if a Serbian would understand ja and ju. No he cannot understand ja and ju, its enough that the whole grammar and words are so strange and so Russian and Polish alike. You dont think that this grammar can understand only Slovenians and BCS only partialy. Bulgarians and Macedonians have still to learn the whole declencion cram not only of nouns but of pronouns and adjectives. And you Russians havent lost anything, weather you have to learn anything new. And still it is so hard for you to exclude ja and ju although you will understand ньа, ньу, льа, льу. Is it right? Will you understand it by analogy unlike Serbians and Macedonains who have no idea what your "oborotnoe R" and some "fallen over Omega" would mean. Its the same thing for Russians. How many Russians and even high educated Russians know what signs are ђћљњџ? |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 5 2010, 10:49 PM Post #70 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Nobody demands that of you. You can exactly the same orthography you're used to. It won't be wrong, incorrect or substandard. The question is rather: should we have four different dictionaries, four different grammars You say typing j is a hell load of needless work. Well, I'm working on a Polish keyboard. Have you any idea how much needless work it is for me to write š, č and ž all the time? FYI, most of the time I use ALT-codes: š = ALT-231, č-ALT-159, ž = ALT-167. I can dream them. For some stupid reason I can never memorise the code for capital č though, so whenever I need it, I always have to do to some document that contains it, or use a tool. For Cyrillic example, I use several different tools, and writing five letters in Cyrillic already means trouble. I do it because I want to be as clear as possible when I am discussing Slovianski here. I already know most ALT codes for ŕ (ALT-234) and the like, but sometimes I'm lazy and write rj or r' anyway. In internet chats and the like, I always use sz, cz and ż. I would very much object against an official orthography that has characters nobody can write. The idea of my proposal is to treat it not as a spelling reform or one official orthography to replace two old ones, but to provide one orthography that may serve as a prototype for both. With one addition: that anybody who can write ń may do so instead of using that stupid n', because let's face it: n' is just an asciification of ń, a hell of a worse one than sz, if you ask me.
No, but that is the consequence of our choice to include phonemes that Serbs and other South Slavs don't have. They don't have much of an option here, because петј looks equally bad for a Serbian as длйа for a Russian. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| gossips | Sep 5 2010, 11:48 PM Post #71 |
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Well, I had no idea, how hard it was for you. For situations of that kind i just use a Czech layout and as well as you I do it for better understandability, because not everyone with who I'm speak knows Cyrillic.
I don't see the advantages of this idea then, if one new orthography will unify the dictionaries, two new orthographies will make other two dictionaries. Or I just don't get it, and you was about making some official Cyrillic only for dictionary of Slovianski? Edited by gossips, Sep 6 2010, 12:28 AM.
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Višla matka kuročka, S nej mali kuriati: "Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko, Nesimati hoditi daleko!" | |
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| iopq | Sep 6 2010, 12:15 AM Post #72 |
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Administrator
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Seems to me ځ can mean "ě" Slověnski dlě all perfectly fine words |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 6 2010, 12:33 AM Post #73 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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No no, that's not what I mean. Since we are using two alphabets, we can't avoid using two orthographies. What I'm actually talking about is having 2x1 instead of 2x2. Be honest, it's absurd to have two dictionaries where the only difference is š vs. sz, ž vs. ż or zs. And frankly, having two separate dictionaries for Russian Cyrillic and Serbian Cyrillic is absurd as well, since most words are identical and most other differ only in details. In яе/јаје it makes quite a difference, but how many words like that do we have? Except for words starting with E and J, the difference is negligable. Besides, there's something else. Should we ever decide to publish the grammar in other orthographies, we'd first have to dismember ligatures and only take it from there, making it look more irregular than it actually is. I'm just talking about the website and dictionaries. When I was making separate dictionaries for Russian and Serbian Cyrillic, I suddenly realised how absurd that was. But having a dictionary in only one of them would not fit in the idea that both are equal. This is explicitly NOT about how people should write: everybody can freely substitute the offered material by what they are used to, Russians can write един, Serbs једин and Ukrainians єдин. Just like that, why should a Czech write deń or den' if he has deň on his keyboard? The result won't be any less Slavic, and any less Slovianski. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| gossips | Sep 6 2010, 12:44 AM Post #74 |
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Ok, now I understand. But I think, that it will bring a bit of chaos in Slovianski.
Edited by gossips, Sep 8 2010, 01:55 PM.
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Višla matka kuročka, S nej mali kuriati: "Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko, Nesimati hoditi daleko!" | |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 6 2010, 03:29 AM Post #75 |
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Uff it is all so complicated. OK probably you are right. It is only that I will never write йужни. but then it's my own whim. OFFTOP: It is so strange, Dražen, that you kept silence about the words you don't understand until now. It discourages me much when I write some Slovianski text, show it to people and ask: "Please guys, tell me do you understand the whole text and tell me which words you don't understand", and everybody answers: "I understand almost all of this", everything seems shiny and then after months all of sudden I realize that they don't understand hell lots of words but they said nothing. It is not only this forum, mostly about Slavic Unity forum. Edited by Moraczewski, Sep 6 2010, 03:30 AM.
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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