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| One more thought about orthography | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 1 2010, 09:44 AM (3,710 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Sep 3 2010, 12:46 PM Post #31 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I guess we could. Even Polish has "felieton" here, i.e. with an i that's really something between i and j. Sort of double softening, I'd say. In Naučni Slovianski I'd represent this as feľjeton, in the kind of Slovianski I'm suggesting as feljeton. We already have that sort of thing verbal nouns, so I suppose we could use it in foreign loans when appropriate. Although it occurs to me that not long ago we decided to use "i" in this sort of cases (kariera etc.). [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 3 2010, 12:55 PM Post #32 |
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I didn't try Slovak layout, but the Czech one handless all those letters and a few others, even non-present in Czech alphabet. (It has all possible consonants and vowels with acute, vowels with umlaut and even u and surprisingly a with a circle over - the latter like in Scandinavian languages).
This is very simply. To answer this question just answer: how the natural languages do? Something tells me that hardly most of them make this distinction at all. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 3 2010, 03:04 PM Post #33 |
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Yes, the first Srbian alphabet of Vuk Stefanovich was like this ль, нь, ть, дь (р and soft рь sound the same way in Serbian so its always written p). Later Vuk Stefanovich made unique characters because ь comes after only four character. ль into љ, нь into њ, ть into Ћ (you can see it is T + ь but he cut the under line so it wouldnt look like ѣ) and дь is to hard to melt so he took old "đerv" from oldslavonic Ђ. 1. So actually this is very attested what Jan propose. 2. It is understandable for both extrems Serbian and Russian 3. The pronounciation is stays the same 4. every Russian, Ukrainian and Bulgarian can write it (For j they can use latin j, every keyboard has latin alphabet), Serbians will be able to predict the meaning of ль, нь, ть, дь but incontrary they will never be able to predict the meaning of я анд ю, for Serbians they look like Kazah alphabet to Russians. So they will think of Я like some strange R. Other way around Russians can better predict what JA, льа, ньа means then Serbians Я, ля, ня. 5. Such system fits 100% to our latin alphabet 6. If you think its a bad idea to mix alphabets of different languages, well, then why we mixed our latin alphabets? And if you think it is a mix, it is not. It is actually intersection of all cyrillic alphabets. LIke this : ![]() Only those letters which every language have are included + j and ь. Why Serbian j and not Russian й? We've already taken Russian ь, besides Serbian J fits better because its not so complicated as Russian й and can be in any natural position, thus fits better to latin j. All in all, it is perfect and can be written by every keyboard. That it is unusual to your eyes, is normal, but you cannot say it is not understandable for anybody. So I dont see any reason why we wouldnt stick to only one alphabet which could be written by every speaker. IMO users like to have one specific, unique thing than lots of mess and confusing stuff. Edited by wannabeme, Sep 3 2010, 03:06 PM.
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| iopq | Sep 3 2010, 03:29 PM Post #34 |
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I'd like to know how Polish and Czech read "relief" or "batalion" Edited by iopq, Sep 3 2010, 03:31 PM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 3 2010, 04:16 PM Post #35 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Yepyep. But I kinda agree with Dražen that we shouldn't use these two, because they never coincide with Slovianski's d' and t', but with our č and dž (Naučni Slovianski: ć and dź) instead. Besides, their form is not exactly a giveaway. If we'd really need to catch these babies in one character only, then I'd propose: лабеԃ, кнеԅ, писатеԉ, коԋ, гуԍ, десеԏ. Only the RJ is missing. Of course, it's not very common, but this system (ԎԂԌԄԈԊ + a few more) has been used for Komi in the interwar period. (this is NOT a proposal, BTW!)
This is true. Of course, in reality it won't be that bad, but we do assume that Slovianski is at least partly intended for being understandable to people who only speak their native language and only know their native alphabet. And from that point of view Я would be equally alien to a Serbian or Macedonian as Ђ would to a Russian or Ukrainian.
Indeed, й could never be used in "йужни" or "земйа", with ј there is no such problem. In a way, you can even say that this Cyrillic orthography is much better than its Latin equivalent, because any Cyrillic-writing language will need only one additional character. That makes writing rather easy, because this one character can be copied onto the clipboard and used anywhere in a text, or one would have to memorise only one alt-code. Besides, a Russian would still have the option of using я, ю and й, it's just that those won't be in the dictionary (theoretically they could be, but it looks kind of stupid to have multiple dictionaries in which most words look exactly the same. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 3 2010, 04:37 PM Post #36 |
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Jan, explain how Polish pronounces CjV sequences in foreign languages in the case of a borrowing. I can't tell because Polish just writes it in the same orthography as the source language so I have no idea whatsoever how it's pronounced. |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 3 2010, 06:26 PM Post #37 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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It's hard to tell. It's not a full syllable, but it's not just palatalisation either. What I can tell you is that there is a clear difference between koniak and konia, but not enough to warrant an extra syllable. I have the impression that it also depends from speaker to speaker. In general, I'd say it is a softened vowel + j + the rest. So, using Naučni Slovianski: końjak vs. końa. See for example http://free.of.pl/g/grzegorj/gram/ipa.html . Here is an (incomplete) list of affected words, to give you an impression. Edited by IJzeren Jan, Sep 3 2010, 06:27 PM.
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| pedza | Sep 3 2010, 08:03 PM Post #38 |
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It would be really impractical to have to copy/paste the soft sign and maybe we could consider making a Slovjanski Cyrillic keyboard layout, and I could help with that if it comes to this. Ја видел лебедьа. (I had to convert it to html entities, Cyrillic doesn't work...) The J shouldn't really be problematic for the Eastern Slavs because languages using the Latin script have already 'infiltrated' those parts. The palatalised d and t might be somewhat problematic with the South Slavs (except Bulgaria) and especially with Slovenians and Macedonians. Slovenians don't have sounds like ť and ď (ć and đ) and Macedonians have ќ and ѓ which are similarly sounding but are formulated as if they were кь and гь. On the other hand, we could use the Cyrillic Ii instead of Jj. It's used in Ukrainian, Belorusian, albeit for the Ии sound. It was used in Serbian/Montenegrin (example), a long time ago in Russian, and unofficially in Macedonian (za makedonckite raboti). Edited by pedza, Sep 3 2010, 08:14 PM.
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| »V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje« -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njegoš | |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 3 2010, 08:23 PM Post #39 |
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This will result in very unnatural-looking orthography. I would like to support the solution that is as close to any existing orthography as possible. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Sep 3 2010, 09:33 PM Post #40 |
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Slovenians, just like BCS will first not pay attention to apostroph in d' and t'. But its not so hard to learn. They only need to see few examples and they will be able to predict when they should write the apostroph. No so hard at all. For Macedonians, well I suppose that almost every Macedonian knows a little bit how Bulgarians write (or dont?). We have stucked with the orthography for years. And now everybody writes its own thing. But in which orthography are we gonna write dictionaries. We have to have an so called official orthography which would be our proposal for universal Slavic orthography. It is logic and regular because every slavic language is based on it but with the time different slavic languages made some irregularities like introducing я, ю, ћ,ђ or similar. It fact that Russians write конь and Serbians коњ. Russians write genitive коня but they will also know what is meant by writing коньа and it will be pronounced the same way. This approuch will economize our grammar and declensions too. And reguarding Macedonian, you say кон I assume. That means that you only need to give no meaning to ь, the same way BCS and slovenians shouldnt give any meaning to apostroph in d' and t'. Besides Macedonain ќ and ѓ are represented by č and dž, thus ч and дж in Slovianski. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 3 2010, 09:55 PM Post #41 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Perhaps not unnatural, but at least very archaic. I actually thought for a moment about using Cyrillic i for cases like delanje (delanie), organizacija and/or kariera, but the truth is, we don't really need it there either, and compared to Cyrillic ј, it doesn't really have any additional value. Both Ј and Ь are easily understood by those who don't have them in their alphabets. It's true that both Ukrainian and Belarusian have this character, but they use it for something completely different (in both cases for the vowel "i", although Ukrainian has it in several positions but not when other Slavic languages have "i"). If I see "іедин", I immediately feel like transcribing it to "iedin". [čć] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| pedza | Sep 3 2010, 10:03 PM Post #42 |
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Yeah, I guess we don't need to repeat history and again replace J with I (albeit it's in another script), hehe...
Some do, some don't. Older generations would probably know more about Bulgarian.
Nah, we say konj too... ![]() |
| »V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje« -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njegoš | |
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| iopq | Sep 4 2010, 01:27 AM Post #43 |
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Macedonain ќ and ѓ are often represented by č and dž, but not all the time in the case of луѓе it corresponds to Sl. люди |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 4 2010, 11:58 AM Post #44 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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koniak, kariera, relief, diabol, felieton, batalion... Polish might even be of a little help here, so here's a thought. It is obvious that these shouldn't be pronounced like końak, kaŕera, reľef, ďjabol, and that's why in our current orthography the spellings konjak, karjera, reljef, djabol etc. won't do. However, it is also true that (at least in most cases) the i isn't a full-fledged syllable. The closest approximation in Naučni Slovianski would probably be: końjak, kaŕjera, reľjef, ďjabol. However, that spelling is ugly, and it also violates the principle that the spelling of foreign words should stay as close as possible to the original, even for the sake of recognisability. What if we keep using i in these cases, and just assume that i + vowel indicates something like palatalisation + j? That way, we make the distinction, we stay close to the original spellings, we achieve a result that doesn't hurt the eye, and we give speakers some freedom to decide for themselves how they want to pronounce it, which, by any standards, will be understandable. In cases where we really want i to be a syllable, we can always write ij (as in dijeta, although f.ex. in Polish is belongs to the same category: ďjeta). And there is always the possiblity of transliterating nie as нье into Russian Cyrillic (by building in the rule иэ > ье), if so desired. We would even extend this to verbal nouns and have delanie after all (which would not be the same as delanije or delanje = delańe). This is BTW exactly the solution used in Novoslovienskij. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 4 2010, 02:39 PM Post #45 |
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no, because that's a Slovak/Polish only spelling feature and in Polish it's confusing as all hell since you'll spell ziemia the same as koniak Slovenian and BCS only know j in this case BCS is not very helpful either since it does the same as polish: doesn't distinguish let's see what cyrillic does: East Slavic just uses the Russian spelling (incl. Ukrainian which doesn't even know the ья spelling convention!) Bulgarian uses коняк, Macedonian/BCS uses Коњак but Bulgarians can't even pronounce soft consonants correctly anyway, since they sound like нья all the time anyway Czech spells it koňak and we'll just ask Gabriel how it's pronounced cognac doesn't exist in the Slovak republic, obviously since no dictionary of mine has the damn word what I dislike about the latin solution is that suddenly words radio and diakritika lose one syllable Edited by iopq, Sep 4 2010, 02:41 PM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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