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Naučni Slovianski [čćч]
Topic Started: Jul 2 2010, 12:53 PM (4,750 Views)
iopq
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bandziol20
Jun 19 2012, 01:14 PM
I've got no problem with cvet (or kvet) and zvezda (or gvezda), but I think we should keep -tl- and -dl-, it has a big role in clarity of declence and derivation. :P
to a Russian speaker the suffix is just -ло in мыло, so it's only "clearer" when you know it's *mydlo
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

But regular east and south Slavs would not understand -dl-/-tl-:

Obrens
 
Ја немам проблема с изговарањем слова грдло, але бих имел проблема са разумевањем того слова. тл, дл јест велики проблем, јербо знам же је западними Словенами проблем разумити без т, д, але и нами је проблем разумити с њими.


gossips
 
Quote:
 
grdlo

Oh, God!.. >_<
I assure you none of East Slavs will understand it, except maybe high-educated slavists.


Source:
http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/single/?p=8017894&t=494321
http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/single/?p=8017912&t=494321
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gossips
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I meant the word grdlo specifically. Many other -dl-/-tl- words would be clear.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
To make things clear: I am not proposing introducing dl/tl into "normal" Slovianski. We're talking about Naučny here. In a system like that, there must be SOMETHING to express this, if only to make West Slavic flavourisation possible.

* EDIT: for the record, I don't see how mylo would be easier for mydlo speakers than vice versa, but there's no point in discussing this now.
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Jun 19 2012, 02:59 PM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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[čćч]
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel Svoboda
Jun 19 2012, 01:04 PM
What follows is not a definite proposal at all, just a chain of thougts and questions.
That's great, it's exactly what I am doing as well.

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As a matter of fact, I have also been thinking about simply throwing in Cyrillic ъ and ь, giving ъr/ьr/ъl/ьl. I'm not a fan of using Cyrillic characters in the Latin alphabet, but in this case it is a tradition in Slavistics that we might as well follow.

I wouldn't be against.

There is, however, one small problem with it. If we go this way, we might as well abolish ň and start writing pěsъk... and from there it's not a long way to kostь and konь.

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My own preference for ķ/ģ stems from the fact that they are the "original", while c/z are the innovation.

How far are you going to go with that? Shall we have tь/dь instead of ć/đ, ǫ instead of ų, -ôr- instead of -rĺ-, -ėr- instead of -rė-? I would not be strictly against, but we should be consistent.

But if we are going to continue preferring majority solutions: I understand some violations of the majority principle (ъl/ьl for symmetry instead of ňl, ĺ more or less for south Slavs instead of ô, -tě for south Slavs and a better-looking orthography instead of -ť). But I see no good motivation behind kv/gv instead of cv/zv. (BTW, haven't you overlooked kv/gv is anti-south-Slavic?).

In my opinion, if a majority of languages undergo an innovation, is is no more standard vs. innovation, it's conservative (archaic) vs. standard.

No, you surely have a point indeed. You've convinced me, something based on C and Z would be better:
Quote:
 
Let's consider ĉvet/ẑvězda, cv̈et/zv̈ězda, c̄vet/ẕvězda, ƈvet/ȥvězda, cwet/zwězda, c·vet/z·vězda.

Not bad! Let's see:
* ĉvet/ẑvězda - could work, although I'm afraid any person familiar with Esperanto (which is quite a lot of us) would instinctively pronounce this as cx... ehm, č. ;)
* cv̈et/zv̈ězda and cwet/zwězda: disadvantage is that you modify the v to express a change in the c/v. I'm not much of a fan of combining diacritics either. Of course, Latin Extended Additional has ṽ and ṿ, but I don't think those would solve our problem.
* c·vet/z·vězda - I'm not a fan of using non-alphabetical characters either. In that case we might as well settle for t·rg and p·ŕvy.
* c̄vet/ẕvězda - Looks nice, but see my remark about combining diacritics and Latin Ext. Add.
* ƈvet/ȥvězda - Hey, I kinda like that one!

Hey, how about this: çvět/ƺvězda (in capitals: ÇVĚT/ƷVEZDA?

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As for tl/dl, what about something like me‘lo and mo'liti? ‘ = former t, ' = former d.

Same problem: doesn't ring a bell. In my view, NMS should only consist of characters that speak for themselves. In this case we need something West Slavs can recognise as t/d and other Slavs as just l.

I'm not much of a fan of ṱ/ḓ, because of Lat.Ext.Add., but they do kind of remind of a "superscripted" t and d. The same set also provides ṭ/ḍ, but I don't see the additional value of that myself.

Here's another possibility: meŧlo/myđlo (capitals: MEŦLO/MYĐLO). I know, kind of simplistic but why not?
Disadvantage: it becomes kind of hard to use đ in "međuslovjanski".

Other possibility based on the same idea: meŧlo/myđlo (capitals: MEŦLO/MYĐLO).

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You mean adding Greek characters instead of ů?


Oh, I didn't notice they were Greek. But still we have , w or ·v.

In any case we need something, because we say evropejsko avto and NS says europejske auto (but then, we don't say nevtralny). If ů is really a problem, then I guess I would prefer ŭ myself.

But I kind of like the parallel between ů and ě (both are vowels that in some languages are consonants) :)

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But let's face it, -ogo does not come from *-ъgo, but from a contraction.

Thanks for the explanation. Then, if we are going to have a more conservative NMS as described above, what about having plain uncontracted adjectival endings? We'd just have to solve conflicts with word final j's like in words olej or dělaj. We'd either write olej, dělaj, dobroĵe/dobroɉe/dobroǰe, or inversely oleĵ/oleɉ/oleǰ, dělaĵ/dělaɉ/dělaǰ, dobroje.

But if we introduced this system to avoid "ugly" -á, -é, -í, -ó, -ý, wouldn't the cure be worse than the disease?

Yes, I'm afraid so. Non-contracted forms don't exist anywhere in contemporary Slavic, and dobrajego/dobrujemu won't help understandability at all.

To analyse this problem, we should distinguish between a few categories:
1) cases where all languages use contraction (dobrogo) - in this case it's a matter of WSl. e vs. ESl/SSl. o.
2) cases where most languages use contraction (dělaješ, dobraja/dobroje/dobryje)
3) cases where only a few languages use contraction (stojati vs. stati)

In case 1 we obviously should use a contracted form, and ś seems like a nice compromise character between o and e, the same principle as in ĺ.
In case 3 we obviously use the long form and don't even think about contraction.

The problem is case 2, especially also because we use dělaš and NS used dělaješ. Now we might just say: we adopt dělaješ and be done with it. But even then it would be nice if we could flavourise the whole thing to dělaš.

What goes for ś does not go for ć, because this is not a case of either/or. If anything, we should use this in cases like slovjćnski, jćsti, čćkati.
Besides, dělajų - dělćš - dělć - dělćmň - dělćte - dělajųt doesn't look good at all.

As a matter of fact, I quite like your idea of using dělaĵeš or dělaǰeš. Perhaps the former would be better, to avoid "multifunctionality" of the haček. We could also use it in the instr.f.sg. s ženoĵų.

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Also, if we kept -á, -é, -í, -ó, -ý, do I understand it right that dobrógo, dobróm, dobrój would be correct (<-- dobrojego, dobrojem, dobrojej)?

If dobró is misleading, would f. ex. dobrö, dobrȯ or dobrō be better?

Yes, this is another problem. If we adopt dobrśgo, then it would make sense to use dobrś as well. Not because it is a contraction of dobroje, but because South Slavic has dobro, while West Slavic and Ukrainian have dobre.

But dobraja is a different case, because all languages except RU and BE have dobra here. Here it doesn't really matter if we write dobrá, dobrâ or dobrā. Probably dobrá is best after all, not only because of Czech and Slovak, but also because of dobrý (somehow dobrȳ and dobrŷ don't look that good at all).

But if hard adjectives have dobrś, what's then do soft adjectives have? Simply svěže? And how about plural?

Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
There is, however, one small problem with it. If we go this way, we might as well abolish ň and start writing pěsъk... and from there it's not a long way to kostь and konь.


Then we'd better stick with the Latin alphabet.

Quote:
 
Hey, how about this: çvět/ƺvězda (in capitals: ÇVĚT/ƷVEZDA?


Wow, an obsolete IPA sign for [žw]! But most people would not recognise it anyway, so I'd rather be symmetric: çvět/ʒvězda, ÇVĚT/ƷVEZDA.

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Basically abandoned on the moment I decided to rename it Naučny Medžuslovjanski, and shortly after I had come to the conclusion that NMS could serve a much more useful purpose, namely serve as a unifying factor between Slovianski and other Interslavic projects (including Novoslovienskij, but not only).


Now as I see how it would work, there is no problem with ṱl/ḓl or ṭl/ḍl, and ů.

Quote:
 
Here's another possibility: meŧlo/myđlo (capitals: MEŦLO/MYĐLO). I know, kind of simplistic but why not?
Disadvantage: it becomes kind of hard to use đ in "međuslovjanski".


Good! The current đ can become dź.

Quote:
 
Other possibility based on the same idea: meŧlo/myđlo (capitals: MEŦLO/MYĐLO).


It's asymmetric (lowercase vs. uppercase), and would not relief us of the need to replace current đ with dź, so I see no advantage of this solution.

Quote:
 
As a matter of fact, I quite like your idea of using dělaĵeš or dělaǰeš. Perhaps the former would be better, to avoid "multifunctionality" of the haček. We could also use it in the instr.f.sg. s ženoĵų.


Okay! In fact, an Esperantist could read "s ženoĵų" as [s ženožu], but let's hope a Slav won't even think about it.

Finally about adjectives: If I understand it right, dobrý and dobrá are accepted after all. Then I can think of five options for the rest:

1. dobró/svežé, dobrógo/svežégo, dobrómu/svežému, dobróm/svežém, dobré/svežé
2. dobroĵe/svežeĵe, dobroĵego/svežeĵego, dobroĵemu/svežeĵemu, dobroĵem/svežeĵem, dobré/svežeĵe
3. dobrś/svežeĵe, dobrśgo/svežeĵego, dobrśmu/svežeĵemu, dobrśm/svežeĵem, dobré/svežeĵe
4. dobrś/svežé, dobrśgo/svežégo, dobrśmu/svežému, dobrśm/svežém, dobré/svežé
5. dobrś/svežɛ, dobrśgo/svežɛgo, dobrśmu/svežɛmu, dobrśm/svežɛm, dobrɛ/svežɛ (with Latin epsilon as a soft equivalent of ś)
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iopq
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it shouldn't be a gaczok over it, it should be a breve over the j like so:
s zsenoj̆u
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Hm, I see the breve over the o rather than over the j. That's exactly why I want to avoid combining diacritics: they often look bad, especially on capital letters.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel Svoboda
Jun 22 2012, 06:46 AM
Quote:
 
There is, however, one small problem with it. If we go this way, we might as well abolish ň and start writing pěsъk... and from there it's not a long way to kostь and konь.


Then we'd better stick with the Latin alphabet.
Indeed. And then I think ṙ and ŕ and ŀ and ĺ are still the lesser evil.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Hey, how about this: çvět/ƺvězda (in capitals: ÇVĚT/ƷVEZDA?


Wow, an obsolete IPA sign for [žw]! But most people would not recognise it anyway, so I'd rather be symmetric: çvět/ʒvězda, ÇVĚT/ƷVEZDA.

Done! :)
Unless anyone objects, of course.

Quote:
 
Now as I see how it would work, there is no problem with ṱl/ḓl or ṭl/ḍl, and ů.

Quote:
 
Here's another possibility: meŧlo/myđlo (capitals: MEŦLO/MYĐLO). I know, kind of simplistic but why not?
Disadvantage: it becomes kind of hard to use đ in "međuslovjanski".


Good! The current đ can become dź.

Quote:
 
Other possibility based on the same idea: meŧlo/myđlo (capitals: MEŦLO/MYĐLO).


It's asymmetric (lowercase vs. uppercase), and would not relief us of the need to replace current đ with dź, so I see no advantage of this solution.

Yep, you're right.

So what would you prefer?
ṱl/ḓl
ṭl/ḍl
ŧl/đl (and revert to "Medźuslovjanski")?

Quote:
 
Okay! In fact, an Esperantist could read "s ženoĵų" as [s ženožu], but let's hope a Slav won't even think about it.

Indeed. Anyway, when it comes to J+diacritic, we have only two options: circumflexe and haček. I wouldn't use the haček because in this orthography the haček already represents something different. Which kinda leaves us with ĵ. Unless we'd use something like s ženoıų, but somehow I don't see the additional value of that (pity there's no dotless J!)

Quote:
 
Finally about adjectives: If I understand it right, dobrý and dobrá are accepted after all. Then I can think of five options for the rest:

1. dobró/svežé, dobrógo/svežégo, dobrómu/svežému, dobróm/svežém, dobré/svežé
2. dobroĵe/svežeĵe, dobroĵego/svežeĵego, dobroĵemu/svežeĵemu, dobroĵem/svežeĵem, dobré/svežeĵe
3. dobrś/svežeĵe, dobrśgo/svežeĵego, dobrśmu/svežeĵemu, dobrśm/svežeĵem, dobré/svežeĵe
4. dobrś/svežé, dobrśgo/svežégo, dobrśmu/svežému, dobrśm/svežém, dobré/svežé
5. dobrś/svežɛ, dobrśgo/svežɛgo, dobrśmu/svežɛmu, dobrśm/svežɛm, dobrɛ/svežɛ (with Latin epsilon as a soft equivalent of ś)


Well, I wouldn't write dobroĵego or svěžeĵego, because those long forms don't exist in any Slavic language.
I would also avoid introducing vowel length. Therefore ś does not mean anything like a long of double vowel, but just contains the warning: some languages have o here, others have e. Because all languages have svěžego, there's no point at all in adding a diacritic here.

Thus my proposal would be:
6. dobrś/svěžé, dobrśgo/svěžego, dobrśmu/svěžemu, dobrśm/svěžem, dobré/svěžé.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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Ukrainian has свіжого because of the e>o change after palatals before hard consonants
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
ŧl/đl (and revert to "Medźuslovjanski")


If ŧl/đl are better available characters, this is probably the right option.

Quote:
 
Thus my proposal would be:
6. dobrś/svěžé, dobrśgo/svěžego, dobrśmu/svěžemu, dobrśm/svěžem, dobré/svěžé.


Good! It's true not all languages have strictly svěžego (Ukrainian свіжого, Czech svěžího), but they are sound changes independent on adjectival declension.
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bandziol20
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Why don't we choose -ego for soft and -ogo for hard consonants ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
See http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/adjectives.html#inflection

The point of NMS is to build a bridge between those who write dobrego and those who write dobrogo
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Gabriel Svoboda

I tried to write a short text in the "new" NMS and I was quite scared by the high nubmer of ś's and ĵ's ("contractible j's") I had to use. So I want to ask if everything is correct about the following:

- s drėvśm, s peklśm
- bez kśgo
- drugś (neuter singular adjective)
- ob tśm
- kśgda
- vśprositě
(so in fact we have no ň any more, just ś)

- s zmijčĵų
- on karaĵe, on znaĵe, on odděľaĵe

- tśĵ
- ob našśĵ, ob svobodnśĵ (it's contractible, cf. Czech o svobodné)
- tvśĵa (it's contractible, cf. Czech tvá)
- ob svśĵčĵ (it's contractible, cf. Czech o své)
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steeven
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Shouldn't "kśgda" be "kśgdy" ?

:o
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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