| Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Naučni Slovianski [čćч] | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 2 2010, 12:53 PM (4,750 Views) | |
| iopq | Jun 19 2012, 01:34 PM Post #106 |
|
Administrator
|
to a Russian speaker the suffix is just -ло in мыло, so it's only "clearer" when you know it's *mydlo |
|
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
![]() |
|
| Gabriel Svoboda | Jun 19 2012, 01:58 PM Post #107 |
|
But regular east and south Slavs would not understand -dl-/-tl-:
Source: http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/single/?p=8017894&t=494321 http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/single/?p=8017912&t=494321 |
![]() |
|
| gossips | Jun 19 2012, 02:16 PM Post #108 |
|
I meant the word grdlo specifically. Many other -dl-/-tl- words would be clear. |
|
Višla matka kuročka, S nej mali kuriati: "Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko, Nesimati hoditi daleko!" | |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 19 2012, 02:58 PM Post #109 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
To make things clear: I am not proposing introducing dl/tl into "normal" Slovianski. We're talking about Naučny here. In a system like that, there must be SOMETHING to express this, if only to make West Slavic flavourisation possible. * EDIT: for the record, I don't see how mylo would be easier for mydlo speakers than vice versa, but there's no point in discussing this now. Edited by IJzeren Jan, Jun 19 2012, 02:59 PM.
|
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 19 2012, 04:43 PM Post #110 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
That's great, it's exactly what I am doing as well.
There is, however, one small problem with it. If we go this way, we might as well abolish ň and start writing pěsъk... and from there it's not a long way to kostь and konь.
No, you surely have a point indeed. You've convinced me, something based on C and Z would be better:
Not bad! Let's see: * ĉvet/ẑvězda - could work, although I'm afraid any person familiar with Esperanto (which is quite a lot of us) would instinctively pronounce this as cx... ehm, č. ![]() * cv̈et/zv̈ězda and cwet/zwězda: disadvantage is that you modify the v to express a change in the c/v. I'm not much of a fan of combining diacritics either. Of course, Latin Extended Additional has ṽ and ṿ, but I don't think those would solve our problem. * c·vet/z·vězda - I'm not a fan of using non-alphabetical characters either. In that case we might as well settle for t·rg and p·ŕvy. * c̄vet/ẕvězda - Looks nice, but see my remark about combining diacritics and Latin Ext. Add. * ƈvet/ȥvězda - Hey, I kinda like that one! Hey, how about this: çvět/ƺvězda (in capitals: ÇVĚT/ƷVEZDA?
Same problem: doesn't ring a bell. In my view, NMS should only consist of characters that speak for themselves. In this case we need something West Slavs can recognise as t/d and other Slavs as just l. I'm not much of a fan of ṱ/ḓ, because of Lat.Ext.Add., but they do kind of remind of a "superscripted" t and d. The same set also provides ṭ/ḍ, but I don't see the additional value of that myself. Here's another possibility: meŧlo/myđlo (capitals: MEŦLO/MYĐLO). I know, kind of simplistic but why not? Disadvantage: it becomes kind of hard to use đ in "međuslovjanski". Other possibility based on the same idea: meŧlo/myđlo (capitals: MEŦLO/MYĐLO).
In any case we need something, because we say evropejsko avto and NS says europejske auto (but then, we don't say nevtralny). If ů is really a problem, then I guess I would prefer ŭ myself. But I kind of like the parallel between ů and ě (both are vowels that in some languages are consonants) ![]()
Yes, I'm afraid so. Non-contracted forms don't exist anywhere in contemporary Slavic, and dobrajego/dobrujemu won't help understandability at all. To analyse this problem, we should distinguish between a few categories: 1) cases where all languages use contraction (dobrogo) - in this case it's a matter of WSl. e vs. ESl/SSl. o. 2) cases where most languages use contraction (dělaješ, dobraja/dobroje/dobryje) 3) cases where only a few languages use contraction (stojati vs. stati) In case 1 we obviously should use a contracted form, and ś seems like a nice compromise character between o and e, the same principle as in ĺ. In case 3 we obviously use the long form and don't even think about contraction. The problem is case 2, especially also because we use dělaš and NS used dělaješ. Now we might just say: we adopt dělaješ and be done with it. But even then it would be nice if we could flavourise the whole thing to dělaš. What goes for ś does not go for ć, because this is not a case of either/or. If anything, we should use this in cases like slovjćnski, jćsti, čćkati. Besides, dělajų - dělćš - dělć - dělćmň - dělćte - dělajųt doesn't look good at all. As a matter of fact, I quite like your idea of using dělaĵeš or dělaǰeš. Perhaps the former would be better, to avoid "multifunctionality" of the haček. We could also use it in the instr.f.sg. s ženoĵų.
Yes, this is another problem. If we adopt dobrśgo, then it would make sense to use dobrś as well. Not because it is a contraction of dobroje, but because South Slavic has dobro, while West Slavic and Ukrainian have dobre. But dobraja is a different case, because all languages except RU and BE have dobra here. Here it doesn't really matter if we write dobrá, dobrâ or dobrā. Probably dobrá is best after all, not only because of Czech and Slovak, but also because of dobrý (somehow dobrȳ and dobrŷ don't look that good at all). But if hard adjectives have dobrś, what's then do soft adjectives have? Simply svěže? And how about plural? |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| Gabriel Svoboda | Jun 22 2012, 06:46 AM Post #111 |
|
Then we'd better stick with the Latin alphabet.
Wow, an obsolete IPA sign for [žw]! But most people would not recognise it anyway, so I'd rather be symmetric: çvět/ʒvězda, ÇVĚT/ƷVEZDA.
Now as I see how it would work, there is no problem with ṱl/ḓl or ṭl/ḍl, and ů.
Good! The current đ can become dź.
It's asymmetric (lowercase vs. uppercase), and would not relief us of the need to replace current đ with dź, so I see no advantage of this solution.
Okay! In fact, an Esperantist could read "s ženoĵų" as [s ženožu], but let's hope a Slav won't even think about it. Finally about adjectives: If I understand it right, dobrý and dobrá are accepted after all. Then I can think of five options for the rest: 1. dobró/svežé, dobrógo/svežégo, dobrómu/svežému, dobróm/svežém, dobré/svežé 2. dobroĵe/svežeĵe, dobroĵego/svežeĵego, dobroĵemu/svežeĵemu, dobroĵem/svežeĵem, dobré/svežeĵe 3. dobrś/svežeĵe, dobrśgo/svežeĵego, dobrśmu/svežeĵemu, dobrśm/svežeĵem, dobré/svežeĵe 4. dobrś/svežé, dobrśgo/svežégo, dobrśmu/svežému, dobrśm/svežém, dobré/svežé 5. dobrś/svežɛ, dobrśgo/svežɛgo, dobrśmu/svežɛmu, dobrśm/svežɛm, dobrɛ/svežɛ (with Latin epsilon as a soft equivalent of ś) |
![]() |
|
| iopq | Jun 22 2012, 07:44 AM Post #112 |
|
Administrator
|
it shouldn't be a gaczok over it, it should be a breve over the j like so: s zsenoj̆u |
|
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 22 2012, 07:34 PM Post #113 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
Hm, I see the breve over the o rather than over the j. That's exactly why I want to avoid combining diacritics: they often look bad, especially on capital letters. |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 22 2012, 07:54 PM Post #114 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
Indeed. And then I think ṙ and ŕ and ŀ and ĺ are still the lesser evil.
Done! ![]() Unless anyone objects, of course.
Yep, you're right. So what would you prefer? ṱl/ḓl ṭl/ḍl ŧl/đl (and revert to "Medźuslovjanski")?
Indeed. Anyway, when it comes to J+diacritic, we have only two options: circumflexe and haček. I wouldn't use the haček because in this orthography the haček already represents something different. Which kinda leaves us with ĵ. Unless we'd use something like s ženoıų, but somehow I don't see the additional value of that (pity there's no dotless J!)
Well, I wouldn't write dobroĵego or svěžeĵego, because those long forms don't exist in any Slavic language. I would also avoid introducing vowel length. Therefore ś does not mean anything like a long of double vowel, but just contains the warning: some languages have o here, others have e. Because all languages have svěžego, there's no point at all in adding a diacritic here. Thus my proposal would be: 6. dobrś/svěžé, dobrśgo/svěžego, dobrśmu/svěžemu, dobrśm/svěžem, dobré/svěžé. |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| iopq | Jun 22 2012, 07:57 PM Post #115 |
|
Administrator
|
Ukrainian has свіжого because of the e>o change after palatals before hard consonants |
|
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
![]() |
|
| Gabriel Svoboda | Jun 24 2012, 05:38 PM Post #116 |
|
If ŧl/đl are better available characters, this is probably the right option.
Good! It's true not all languages have strictly svěžego (Ukrainian свіжого, Czech svěžího), but they are sound changes independent on adjectival declension. |
![]() |
|
| bandziol20 | Jun 25 2012, 09:34 AM Post #117 |
|
Why don't we choose -ego for soft and -ogo for hard consonants ? |
|
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 25 2012, 10:13 AM Post #118 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
See http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/adjectives.html#inflection The point of NMS is to build a bridge between those who write dobrego and those who write dobrogo |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| Gabriel Svoboda | Jul 28 2012, 02:46 PM Post #119 |
|
I tried to write a short text in the "new" NMS and I was quite scared by the high nubmer of ś's and ĵ's ("contractible j's") I had to use. So I want to ask if everything is correct about the following: - s drėvśm, s peklśm - bez kśgo - drugś (neuter singular adjective) - ob tśm - kśgda - vśprositě (so in fact we have no ň any more, just ś) - s zmijčĵų - on karaĵe, on znaĵe, on odděľaĵe - tśĵ - ob našśĵ, ob svobodnśĵ (it's contractible, cf. Czech o svobodné) - tvśĵa (it's contractible, cf. Czech tvá) - ob svśĵčĵ (it's contractible, cf. Czech o své) |
![]() |
|
| steeven | Jul 28 2012, 05:00 PM Post #120 |
|
Shouldn't "kśgda" be "kśgdy" ?
|
|
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Fonologija i pravopis · Next Topic » |









2:14 PM Jul 11